tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post1997939426727024392..comments2024-01-14T15:52:43.644-05:00Comments on The Thirteenth Depository - A Wheel of Time Blog: The Male Forsaken and their Strength in the Power : A debateDominichttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17610557134981958201noreply@blogger.comBlogger23125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-2934837209408137632012-04-18T13:46:37.111-04:002012-04-18T13:46:37.111-04:00It would appear that gateway strength is no longer...It would appear that gateway strength is no longer an indicator of strength in the power. I forget his name, but there is the one Black Tower soldier in Rand's group (<i>The Gathering Storm</i> and <i>Towers of Midnight</i>) who can barely take in enough power to shave a chip of rock off a boulder, but can make a gateway large enough for a wagon.Manetherenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16136085597386765947noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-80711939176307917492012-02-26T23:28:43.271-05:002012-02-26T23:28:43.271-05:00Two comments on the whole men v. women Forsaken.
...Two comments on the whole men v. women Forsaken.<br /><br />I do not believe Lanfear is anywhere near #2. The evidence for that is Moiraine's statement. How would she know? <br /><br />When Lanfear comes to give her little plan to Rahvin, and Sammael and Graendal, Rahvin thinks to himself that either he or Sammael could overhwhelm Lanfear if it came to it. But worries that the women would then link. (tFoH, The First Sparks Fall).<br /><br />From this, I believe both Rahvin and Sammael are stronger than Lanfear in terms of the amount of Power than can channel.<br /><br />However, being the strongest, or most feared, or most dangerous Forsaken doesn't necessarily correlate with the maximum amount of Power one can draw.<br /><br />As we've seen, dexterity of weaves and precision can be just as important. If you can draw more, but are slow and can't get your defenses up in time, you are done. <br /><br />Furthermore, special skills or talents in a particular area (or a weakness) could be decisive in a duel. Asmodean can't break through shields, but that member of the Kin who can barely channel is able to hold Nynaeve. <br /><br />Lastly, being the most powerful/feared Forsaken may not equate with OP strength. If the channelers talents exploit a certain area well (Granedal/Moggy in Compulsion) it could make up for a lack of strength to make them more effective/feared/powerful. Or they could have talents/skills that are unrelated to OP usage (Lanfear/Ishy/Mesaana seem to be best in T'A'R). Or you could have a strong channeler with no talents or skills (Balthamel).TrueCrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13647230788253070410noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-62766430523431650912011-08-14T22:33:08.213-04:002011-08-14T22:33:08.213-04:00Keep in mind also that just because men are strong...Keep in mind also that just because men are stronger in the power that doesn't mean a woman cannot be stronger. It's rather silly to think that the strongest woman would still be weaker than the weakest man.<br /><br />I'm sure their relative strengths would cross each other at some point somewhere in the middle of the list with men and women overlapping. That would be where dexterity comes to play and why a women could rate near Ishy and Deman. She's weaker than them, but more dexterous which makes her equal. <br /><br />Even with dexterity, if men were ALWAYS stronger than women, then women would never be able to stand against them. No matter what women could weave, all the men would have to do was overwhelm them with powerful, hard weaves.Gifted Designshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01972599105406385581noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-72391589314379967142011-06-29T21:20:57.619-04:002011-06-29T21:20:57.619-04:00Lanfear could fit in anywhere from right after LTT...Lanfear could fit in anywhere from right after LTT/Moridin all the way down below Asmodean. I would guess a spot right after Demandred would make the most sense to me though.<br /><br />Men are naturally stronger in the Power than women, at least on average. I would assume it runs the same way with the Forsaken, even though all of the women are almost certainly stronger than the vast majority of men.<br /><br />The books mention Lanfear several times as being one of the top two strongest Forsaken along with Ishamael. I'm guessing "strong" in this context really means or has been twisted over time to describe her overall fighting ability rather than raw strength. While I believe someone such as Demandred is stronger, I have no doubt Lanfear could easily match up with him and maybe even be favored due to her dexterity.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-47739726266863876882011-05-09T10:45:07.558-04:002011-05-09T10:45:07.558-04:00Totally sexist to say women are weaker than men. W...Totally sexist to say women are weaker than men. Women are just as strong or stronger than men in every aspect. stop being such chauvinist pigs!!!!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-48120744498755070572011-02-25T07:49:42.108-05:002011-02-25T07:49:42.108-05:00I think that some of the female channelers are str...I think that some of the female channelers are strong as male channelers. When Graendal saw Cindane she thought that in the age of legend a few male channelers were stronger than her and it was very uncommon among the wemen.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-5139952089855259182010-10-20T09:16:01.976-04:002010-10-20T09:16:01.976-04:00Actually Egwene estimates that Rand is wielding at...Actually Egwene estimates that Rand is wielding at LEAST 12 weaves at once when he wraps her and Elayne up and he had no idea what he was doing back then.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-10341808951813061262010-10-12T21:50:58.058-04:002010-10-12T21:50:58.058-04:00there was a blog post by RJ himself, confirming th...there was a blog post by RJ himself, confirming that the strongest male channelers are stronger in the amount of raw power they can handle than the strongest female channelers, but women are more dextrous in their weaving. because of this, RJ concluded that, overall, the strongest man and strongest woman were about equal in terms of how *effective* they were at using the power.<br /><br />in KoD, we see an example of egwene splitting her flows 14 ways (in a novice class), even while under the effect of forkroot. there isn't anything even close to this for a male channeler in the series so far.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-59411274633157242842010-05-28T11:46:55.230-04:002010-05-28T11:46:55.230-04:00Neil is correct about the assertion that male chan...Neil is correct about the assertion that male channelers are much stronger. Another example is when Rand wraps up Elayne and Egwene rather easily.<br /><br />One thing to note though, the men might be stronger, but the women are more dexterous, able to weave many more things at once.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-15758020153689323272010-05-09T16:05:44.077-04:002010-05-09T16:05:44.077-04:00It is firmly established throughout the series tha...It is firmly established throughout the series that men are naturally stronger in the Power than women. Just one example that I can think of, off the top of my head, is that Taim and his Asha'man don't consider an equal number of Aes Sedai to be any threat whatsoever. Not to mention the fact that men caused the Breaking of the World, while Moiraine exhausted herself making temporary ripples in the ground. (Don't get me wrong though, I love Moiraine!)<br /><br />That said, the idea that Lanfear was as strong as Ishamael is just not true. I would guess that she was stronger than Asmo, just based on their interactions, but certainly Rand, LTT, Ish/Moridin, and Demandred are or were all much stronger.Neilhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15114814313170622248noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-70007861487368675002010-01-03T22:43:05.357-05:002010-01-03T22:43:05.357-05:00which is wrong. lanfear is not as strong as ishama...which is wrong. lanfear is not as strong as ishamael ..that is made clear if you read the series. lanfear who is the strongest female channeler isnt as strong as the strongest male channelers. its just something that for example moraine believes. but not correct.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-78451180779236321772009-11-26T19:30:50.544-05:002009-11-26T19:30:50.544-05:00Anonymous, Lanfear is not weaker than Asmodean, in...Anonymous, Lanfear is not weaker than Asmodean, in fact, the series states serveral times that she equals Ishamael in the One Power.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-59122062515089527242009-09-12T22:41:41.327-04:002009-09-12T22:41:41.327-04:001. ishamael (only rand and LTT is/are stronger tha...1. ishamael (only rand and LTT is/are stronger than him..and maybe ishamael was equalled by one or two male aes sedai from the age of legends..i dont know, just speculation)<br />2. aginor/demandred/sammael/rahvin..i believe these forsaken are equally strong. that is the clear impression i have gotten when reading the series. (i also think that taim and logain are as strong as the above mentioned forsaken..and you could also include guaire amalasan at this strength level)<br />3. bel'al and balthamel <br />4.asmodean<br />..and i think lanfear is just slightly weaker than asmodean (but she can't rival the strongest male channelers in brute strength)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-40087717365227092462009-08-09T17:58:34.371-04:002009-08-09T17:58:34.371-04:00OK, a few comments to start with:
1. Graendal moc...OK, a few comments to start with:<br /><br />1. Graendal mocked Demandred in Winter's Heart, yes, but that cannot be seen as an indication of her relative strength to his. Why do I say that? Simple. Because at that point she already had the ring angreal she found in Sammael's stasis box in Illian.<br /><br />This means that her confidence would have been greatly boosted by the fact that she was now anything from 50%-100% stronger than normal.<br /><br />2. Arangar faced a weaker circle than Demandred at the Cleansing.<br /><br />Demandred faced a circle lead by Flinn who is the strongest of the Ashaman as of PoD, according to Rand himself. Furthermore, Flinn is also the most skilled Ashaman we know of when it comes to the weaving of complex webs, partly due to his training by Aginor, and partly due to his natural ability.<br /><br />Flinn is also leading his circle, meaning he is well suited to fighting a male channeler.<br /><br />In contrast, Arangar faces a circle which contains Dagian = the weakest Aes Sedai in the Tower. Dagian is so weak that she is not even a third as strong as Moiraine or Siuan. That means you could have 3 Dagian's in the circle, and they would not even add up to one Moiraine, for example. We know this because the post stilling Siuan is significantly less than half her original strength, and yet she is STILL stronger than Dagian. This is according to a quot from Siuan herself, in Cos.<br /><br />Dagian's circle also contains Eben, who is weaker than Flinn. <br /><br />So the bottomline is that Demandred faces a much stronger circle at Shadar Logoth than Aginor does.<br /><br />I believe the order of strength among the male Forsaken goes like this:<br /><br />Ishamael/Demandred<br />Sammael/Aginor<br />Rahvin<br />Balthamel/Be'lal<br />Asmodean<br /><br />We can continue the debate so that I can demonstrate in more depth why I strongly believe this to be the case, but this comment will do for now.Shannowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05298467316882919047noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-66076262206973644652009-04-27T20:20:00.000-04:002009-04-27T20:20:00.000-04:001. In EoTW (there is neither beginning not end), M...<I>1. In EoTW (there is neither beginning not end), Moiraine states that only the most powerful channelers in the Age of Legends could have wielded the power of the Eye. By implication, he must possess close to the highest strength in the Power if Moiraine is correct.</I>See, I think this is evidence to the contrary. If Moiraine is right (not that I'd wager my pocket change on that) and only the most powerful channellers can wield the power of the Eye, that would mean channellers more powerful than Aginor - after all, he died from failing to master the power of the Eye. And if he's second in strength only to Lews Therin Telamon and Ishamael, that means that 'most powerful' is a pretty restricted group indeed!Fanatic-Templarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14788900776054473413noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-56339827832248735212009-04-18T12:51:00.000-04:002009-04-18T12:51:00.000-04:00Agreed - there's a whole theme of corrupted or unf...Agreed - there's a whole theme of corrupted or unfulfilled Talents. I would almost say that Balthamel is the personification of sloth, and certainly of lust.<br /><br />Of all the Forsaken, I think he's one of only a few without a skill or talent in some area. It's probably because we don't know enough about him, but it's also possibly he has no skills or developed talents. Even Tel'aran'rhiod seems to be a great effort for Aran'gar, and she's only interested in mastering the minimum required to trace Egwene. She's not interested in bettering her skills.Dr Saidinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00674226467420637144noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-11334306316906703242009-04-16T00:27:00.000-04:002009-04-16T00:27:00.000-04:00I agree Dom. That's exactly what I had in mind. He...I agree Dom. That's exactly what I had in mind. He was very strong, but did little that was useful with his ability.Lindahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14767984732078916662noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-22451146824740902232009-04-15T23:15:00.000-04:002009-04-15T23:15:00.000-04:00"Aran'gar may be unskilled and weak, or skilled an..."Aran'gar may be unskilled and weak, or skilled and strong. We don't really know much about him to be honest, though his display at the Cleansing technically made him as proficient as Demandred or any of his peers."<br /><br />The problem judging Balthamel is that he is by character some sort of a lazy slacker. He seems to be the type who trained as Aes Sedai to get the status or because with his potential it seemed easy, became a scholar, perhaps against for the status, but never invested himself serious in his work, preferring his pleasures. <br /><br />He gives the impression to be someone with probably a fairly high strenght and who had it easy, and most likely has a great amount of underdevelopped skills. In short, a great deal of wasted potential, because he was too lazy. <br /><br />I wouldn't be surprised he's the Forsaken with the worse strength to skills ratio, that for someone of his strenght he's pretty much a disgrace.Dominichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17610557134981958201noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-3574424778557088562009-04-15T23:03:00.000-04:002009-04-15T23:03:00.000-04:00You're going to "do" the women?:P
As for the rest...You're going to "do" the women?:P<br /><br />As for the rest, I more or less agree. Though I do think that even the weakest Forsaken are not pushovers for the others. Anyone of the can be a threat to the others, IMO.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-51889947219786183642009-04-15T13:10:00.000-04:002009-04-15T13:10:00.000-04:00It's difficult to say regarding Aran'gar and other...It's difficult to say regarding Aran'gar and other lesser Forsaken like Asmodean. While it is true that all of them survived the War of Power, we now know that only six of the thirteen were among the top. Those who were sealed away were coincidentally at some sort of regional or specific gathering and just happened to be snared by Lews Therin and the Companions.<br /><br />Therefore they could have been very weak. Moghedien, for instance, is quite weak compared to the other women. Aran'gar may be unskilled and weak, or skilled and strong. We don't really know much about him to be honest, though his display at the Cleansing technically made him as proficient as Demandred or any of his peers.<br /><br />Once again, Be'lal, who knows? He's been set up as a close personal friend of Lews Therin and a 'great' man in general, but there is some evidence against him. No one really calls Sammael or Demandred a fool even if they are disliked, yet Rahvin considers him to be one, and says he always was one. It doesn't fit the picture. Rahvin does seem to be correct though - Be'lal was impulsive and not a very good Netweaver at all.<br /><br />The women, we'll do next month. :)Dr Saidinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00674226467420637144noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-10115473012263126922009-04-13T23:38:00.000-04:002009-04-13T23:38:00.000-04:00Nice job!
I more or less agree with this list, tho...Nice job!<br />I more or less agree with this list, though I think I would place Be'lal and Sammael together and Rhavin and Aran'gar together. Otherwise, this list is exactly as I view the male forsaken. <br />How about the women, though?<br />Here's a possible list (and I'm one of those who tends to place them on the higher side):<br />- Ishamael (Lanfear)<br />- Demandred / Aginor (Cyndane)<br />- Sammael, Be'lal (Graendal) <br />- Rahvin, Aran'gar (Semirhage, Mesaana)<br />- Asmodean <br />- (Moghedien)<br /><br />-FionweAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-72561199241829953862009-04-12T23:52:00.000-04:002009-04-12T23:52:00.000-04:00I agree with Linda about Aran'gar - her weakness s...I agree with Linda about Aran'gar - her weakness seems to center on her lack of any real talent (who cares about primitive cultures anyway?); the differences between the Forsaken in Power is obviously subtle, though, since they're all among the strongest. I've sort of assumed since the guide came out that they were listed in order of strength, since it's implied, and I suppose that's always been good enough for me. But next time the relative strength of the Forsaken becomes important in a discussion, I know where to refer for the facts. :)Terezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12417142245785029171noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-15257406844601432572009-04-11T17:33:00.000-04:002009-04-11T17:33:00.000-04:00Nice pics!I think that Sammael, Rahvin, Be'lal and...Nice pics!<BR/><BR/>I think that Sammael, Rahvin, Be'lal and Aran'gar may spread across two levels, not three. I agree Sam should be on a lievel below Demandred (Mr Almost) and Aginor, but I'm not sure about the order of the other three. We never saw much of Be'lal, he was offed in a rather lame fashion meant to serve him right. Aran'gar I think might actually be stronger than you suggest. I think Aran'gar's only talent (small t) is strength in the Power, otherwise s/he is a dill. The only reason the legal forces of the AOL didn't sever Balthamel was his strength in the Power, therefore it must have been impressive for a male. I am assuming that Asmo is strong for a male, but not very strong, ie not that impressive, so I'd bump Aran'gar up a level.Lindahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14767984732078916662noreply@blogger.com