tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post4148404744824098155..comments2024-01-14T15:52:43.644-05:00Comments on The Thirteenth Depository - A Wheel of Time Blog: The Path of Daggers Read-through #1: The SlowingDominichttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17610557134981958201noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-21883901353149715082010-03-08T02:00:38.266-05:002010-03-08T02:00:38.266-05:00The slowing didn't bother me, Winter's Hea...The slowing didn't bother me, Winter's Heart is one of my favorite books in the series.Timmayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03611663732025332067noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-72751897695189814372010-02-19T10:14:21.852-05:002010-02-19T10:14:21.852-05:00Contrary to Rybosh, even though I didn't reall...Contrary to Rybosh, even though I didn't really spot the thematic element until later, I always enjoyed these novels. The character building is clever and necessary. Indeed, on my recent re-read I set myself the task of trying to work out how I would have progressed the series if Crossroads of Twilight hadn't happened. It's harder than one would think. Most of the plot points necessary for the resolutions in KoD are set up in CoT (such as the layout of Malden, Furyk Karede's expedition and the extra sea-folk bargain). If all of these had been moved to KoD it would have felt very jarring - they would have been pulled out of a hat. And that doesn't begin to deal with the necessary changes in Mat, Egwene and Perrin.<br /><br />My other thought is that, in most books the section between half-way through and three-quarters is often the slowest, as that's when all the pieces are moved into position for the endgame. In the case of the Wheel (which can be seen as one very long book) that works out as books 8-10. Perhaps we shouldn't be surprised by the slowing.<br /><br />Either way, the later books are never going to be to everyone's tastes, but some like them.<br /><br />LJ.LordJussnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-16266601900631909602010-02-18T19:27:26.046-05:002010-02-18T19:27:26.046-05:00RJ may have achieved what he wanted with his '...RJ may have achieved what he wanted with his 'slowing', but it did serious damage to his reputation as a writer. <br /><br />Every fan I have spoken to absolutely hates the slowing.Vincent Trevanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14183605207858993392noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-12423332813831396702010-02-18T14:14:49.404-05:002010-02-18T14:14:49.404-05:00I have enjoyed the "slow" books very muc...I have enjoyed the "slow" books very much, but I am fascinated by character development and growth.<br /><br />Yes, overall I found Perrin's plot line least enjoyable, and Egwene's and Mat's most enjoyable, but that's also a matter of taste.<br /><br />I thought when I first read it that Joiya's tale was a lie, or only a partial truth. And we now know, because of the Oath Rod, she couldn't have told the whole truth. But there might have been some elements of truth, or she might have been trying to distract the three from the real objective, or it might have been a lucky coincidence that something was up with Taim and that Joiya lied more convincingly than she knew.<br /><br />I don't think the plan was ever to set him up, at that point, as a fake Dragon. Maybe the other, yet to be fully explained, plot that involved the Black Tower--or something with Rand--was already underway.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10552897516828738187noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-36373805613904480052010-02-18T00:34:02.818-05:002010-02-18T00:34:02.818-05:00Well said, Linda, well said. Jordan was a masterfu...Well said, Linda, well said. Jordan was a masterful storyteller and world-builder. He hooked us with the familiar (with tantalizing hints of something more) and kept the pace fast and furious. Once we were hopelessly his, Jordan fully immersed us in his creation.Pseudonatehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06970594067674446232noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-18968733708570498792010-02-17T15:23:57.913-05:002010-02-17T15:23:57.913-05:00As a musician, I've always thought of Jordan&#...As a musician, I've always thought of Jordan's series as a literary Ring Cycle, though it's an epic even longer and more convoluted than Wagner's masterpiece. <br /><br />We have just neared the end of the first act of Gotterdammerung. Still a long way to go with a couple more intermissions. <br /><br />Wagnerian style music would work very well, btw, for a soundtrack. The subtleties and undercurrents Wagner brought out in the background of his thickly textured orchestration would be very appropriate for many scenes.t ballnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-89287419927007510792010-02-17T11:39:32.972-05:002010-02-17T11:39:32.972-05:00In part I like the slowing process and the effect ...In part I like the slowing process and the effect it has upon the story but I think Jordan may have overdone it quite a bit in the last books (I'm thinking of CoT in particular). The shadow-plots should also have been a bit more clear, the casual reader might not pick them up and feel that the "obvious" win for the good guys is taking to long. The subtle part of the series is sometimes a bit to... subtle.DHnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-78295245337193702772010-02-17T07:27:19.452-05:002010-02-17T07:27:19.452-05:00There also a whole theme in the earlier books abou...There also a whole theme in the earlier books about the Waygates, and their importance to both sides of the War between the Light and Shadow. <br /><br /> Loial at one point tells everyone that a Waygate [i]could[/i] be destroyed, with Verin Sedai in the audience no less too! <br /><br />Source: The Shadowing Rising, Ch. 43 "Care for the Living" - Perrin pov:<br /><br />[b]“I did not mean destroy, exactly.” Loial leaned on his long-handled axe. “A Waygate was destroyed once, less than five hundred years after the Breaking, according to Damelle, daughter of Ala daughter of Soferra, because the Gate was near a stedding that had fallen to the Blight. There are two or three Gates lost in the Blight as it is. But she wrote that it was very difficult, and required thirteen Aes Sedai working together with a sa’angreal. Another attempt she wrote of, by only nine, during the Trolloc Wars, damaged the Gate in such a way that the Aes Sedai were pulled into—” He cut off, ears wriggling with embarrassment, and knuckled his wide nose. Everyone was staring at him, even Verin and the Aiel. “I do let myself be carried away, sometimes. The Waygate. Yes. I cannot destroy it, but if I remove both Avendesora leaves completely, they will die.” He grimaced at the thought. “The only means of opening the Gate again will be for the Elders to bring the Talisman of Growing. Though I suppose an Aes Sedai could cut a hole in it.” This time he shuddered. Damaging a Waygate must have seemed like tearing up a book to him.[/b]<br /><br /> The Shadow has had a strategy advantage through the majority of the story, because of the flexibly of the Waygate transportation system.Didanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-69550109024648673922010-02-17T07:26:29.648-05:002010-02-17T07:26:29.648-05:00Actually in the 'The Shadow Rising' book C...Actually in the 'The Shadow Rising' book Chapter 5 "Questioners", the Borderlander nations armies are directly suggested by the captured Black Ajah Joiya as being part of the Shadow's Plan.<br /><br /><br /> Neither Nynaeve, Egwene nor Aviendha wants to believe Joiya's story, only Moiraine sent three pigeons to the White Tower as a warning to Siuan. That warning by pigeon mail never reached Siuan's eyes. Joiya claimed to repent her sins, similar to Ingtar at the end of the Great Hunt book. <br /><br /> Joiya was correct about Mazrim Taim level of channel ability, and the plan to break him free. Egwene, Nynaeve both listened to this. Has Egwene finally accepted at the end of tGS book, that Joiya was telling the truth as she knew it correctly?<br /><br /> We know from Verin Sedai that a Black Ajah can betray other darkfriends (tGS). But they cannot betray the Dark One himself until an hour within a darkfriends own death. <br /><br /> If Nynaeve, Egwene knew their [I]histories[/I] at the time, they would have known who these nations were, then:<br /><br />"Those who do not shrink at such butchery will seek out the Rand al’Thor who seems to revel in blood. The nations will unite as they did in the Aiel War . . . ” She gave Aviendha an apologetic smile, incongruous beneath those merciless eyes. “ . . . but no doubt much more quickly. Even the Dragon Reborn cannot stand against that, not forever. He will be crushed before the Last Battle even begins, by the very ones he was meant to save."<br /><br /><br /> After hearing this plan look at Egwene's own thoughts on the topic:<br /><br />[B]It was a plausible story, more plausible than Amico’s tale of a few eavesdropped sentences, but Egwene believed Amico and not Joiya. Perhaps because she wanted to. A vague threat in Tanchico was easier to face than this fully fleshed plan to turn every hand against Rand.[/B] (tSR, Ch.5)<br /><br /> <br /> However next sentences of Egwene's thoughts show her not really wanting to believe want she has just heard from Joiya. <br /><br /> [B]No, she thought. Joiya is lying. I am sure she is. Yet they could not afford to ignore either story.[/B](tSR, Ch.4)<br /> <br /><br /> Towards the end of 'The Gathering Storm' book Chapter "The Tower Stands" page 705, Egwene's actions do suggest she not ignoring the dangers posed by the Black Tower. Finally, a change in Egwene's earlier judgment:<br /><br /> [B]"Mother," Romanda said, "I have made the inquires you requested. There has been no contact with those sent to the Black Tower. Not a whisper."<br /><br /> "Does this strike you as odd?" Egwene asked.<br /> <br /> "Yes, Mother. With Traveling they should have been there and back by now. They should have at least sent word. This silence is disturbing." [/B]Didanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-71655892421682281042010-02-17T05:50:59.305-05:002010-02-17T05:50:59.305-05:00It occurred to me that Jordan could have done some...It occurred to me that Jordan could have done something truly interesting with this "slow time" that might have kept the interest of the readers a bit better.<br /><br />Since the plot had effectively split into five nearly independent tracks (Perrin, Mat, Rand, Egwene, Elayne), he could have spawned five mini series from the main storyline. Each series might have been two or three books, which would have dealt with that storyline alone. There could have been connecting events - the cleansing of <i>saidin</i>, for example, or occasional meetings in <i>T'a'R</i> - but for the most part they would have been five independent sub-series under the <i>Wheel of Time</i> banner.<br /><br />This would have been a good idea mainly because the five stories move at different paces, with their climactic moments not meshing together very well. Thus the irregular, forced feel of the books between LoC and KoD.<br /><br />Once each series was resolved,they could be re-assimilated into the main story, which would resume under the <i>Wheel of Time</i> name alone.<br /><br />I get Jordan's explanation for it, but I'm sniffing a bit of rationalization here. It's much easier to get through on the re-reads, but I can definitely understand why readership may have dropped off in this period.Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07947249152449641066noreply@blogger.com