tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post5872530348482213226..comments2024-01-14T15:52:43.644-05:00Comments on The Thirteenth Depository - A Wheel of Time Blog: There Are No Beginnings or Endings...The Paradox of WOT's EschatologyDominichttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17610557134981958201noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-72619568694725873412020-09-23T07:28:48.286-04:002020-09-23T07:28:48.286-04:00Thank you.
Participating in the cycle is the des...Thank you. <br /><br />Participating in the cycle is the desirable thing, and salvation is a hope that nothing will prevent the soul from doing that participation. <br />Each iteration is more complex than the previous time that Age came around. The rebirth is seen as the goal in itself. <br /><br />Ishamael is considered astray because he has despaired. He was also prepared to do anything—even condemn every other thing to nothingness to achieve that. He is really wrong in wanting that. It is an evil thing. Taking away the ultimate choice for others, destroying the balance of the Pattern, even letting the Dark One destroy the Pattern. Ishamael’s problem is that he tried to find out his previous lives and that turned him off the cycle of reincarnation. “Too much knowledge”. Rand also nearly fell into this error when he raged about the cycle of reincarnation. But he saw the purpose of it, which is getting to love others each time, living a better life, undoing wrongs. Ishamael never realised or maybe never even wanted to realise that. The purpose to live is love. The pattern is that there are periods where particular big events are fixed up, and where other big things go wrong. It won’t be the same way each time.<br /><br />The omnipotence of the Creator is something Jordan never let on. Lanfear had the ultimate hubris, as did Ishamael.<br /><br />Ji’e’toh certainly keeps the Aiel strong, as does their attitude of hardiness and wanting to outshine—a way of winning honour. They may be overdone because it makes the story good.<br /><br />Rand has parallels to figures and beliefs that are gnostic, but also to other figures and religions that are not gnostic. WOT is much less gnostic than Sanderson’s world—the last 3 books do have some of Sanderson’s views mixed in with Jordan’s. But Rand is a saviour figure and you can’t save the world until you save yourself.<br />Lindahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14767984732078916662noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-77929379235495603542020-09-22T14:42:21.019-04:002020-09-22T14:42:21.019-04:00Awesome article Linda. I got a bit into WoT after ...Awesome article Linda. I got a bit into WoT after many, many years and it's been a pleasure to peruse your site. <br /><br />Regarding the cosmos, I can't help wondering if Ishamael was right in the end. An endless cycle of repetition, each age only slightly different from its last iteration.. Rebirth, sure, but where is the salvation in that? Ishmael seems perfectly justified in wanting out. Sure, Rand tries to make the case that it is a new chance to fix mistakes and such, but that only works in a linear world. Eventually, the nukes will rain down anyways, the old mistakes made again. <br /><br />Secondly, I would be very curious to know how omnipotent and omnipresent the Creator is. Did he initially battle the DO, was it 50:50 chance of winning or is the DO significantly weaker than him? I get the impression the Creator may be stronger, he simply stays his hand. Was Lanfear mad to think she could challenge the Creator or did she have some metaphysical insight we don't know? <br /><br />Thirdly, belief. Belief seems to have some concrete power in Randland, making prophecies come true, for example. Regarding Shadar Logoth, the dark acts or the Aridhol people that made other nations fear them more than the Shadow (I imagine self-mutilation and cannibalism and such) leading to a point where their dark beliefs.. did something? I think Mashadar is the souls of the Aridholians turned into a malevolent force. <br /><br />I wonder if the Aiel physical prowess is a result of belief granting addional strength? Ji'e'toh is a very strong belief system. Does this explain their somewhat overpowered fighting skills with better equipped enemies? <br /><br />Lastly, any gnostic parallels? I'm not too familiar with gnosticism, but Rand in the end seems like a gnostic figure. In Jungian psychology, individuation requires coming to terms with darkness, terror and alienation in the psyche (not over but through it, as a patient of Jung's heard Jung tell her in a dream where she was drowning in a swamp). Rand certainly went through his darkness to achieve growth. <br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-84312748002128829472020-09-17T22:25:11.495-04:002020-09-17T22:25:11.495-04:00What extra info do you need? What extra info do you need? Lindahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14767984732078916662noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-15242220175341400762020-09-17T22:21:19.800-04:002020-09-17T22:21:19.800-04:00I know this comment is coming really late to the g...I know this comment is coming really late to the game so to speak, but I have a question. I'm using the Wheel of Time as a cultural artifact for an essay. It's about themes in the humanities. Anyway, this essay is so very helpful and I would love to use it as a reference source. With that being said is there any way to get the extra info I would need to make a proper citation. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11180850776529582733noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-56581786094707322272014-11-22T05:53:47.037-05:002014-11-22T05:53:47.037-05:00Thank you, Paul, I'm glad you like it. The ess...Thank you, Paul, I'm glad you like it. The essay hasn't been updated for the last 3 books, because I've decided to split it into 3: theology, time and eschatology. I decided to wait until AMOL came out before I started work since I didn't want to rework it.<br /><br />I think the light in Rand's mind is from his epiphany - which he did to himself.<br /><br />The Creator has probably 3 times of interference: reassuring Rand at the Eye, reassuring Rand at Shayol Ghul in AMOL and putting Rand's soul into Moridin's body.<br /><br />Rand's epiphany could also be regarded as an example of Taoism: he had gone so dark that he flipped to the opposite extreme which resulted in the light coating his brain. Lindahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14767984732078916662noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-84891197788652348472014-11-21T20:28:36.764-05:002014-11-21T20:28:36.764-05:00This is a great piece ... though I'm gonna adm...This is a great piece ... though I'm gonna admit I haven't read it all yet.<br /><br />Regarding the section "Interference in the world", I've been wondering if the Creator made an exception to his rule of non-interference at the end of the Gathering Storm (I assume I don't need to worry about spoiling anything here). Rand is freed from the effects of tainted saidin. In the Towers of Midnight, Nynaeve describes the taint as still infecting his mind, but it's being held back by bands of light. Is this just symbolic of Rand's internal jihad to keep the darkness at bay? Or was it one miracle the Creator chose to indulge in at exactly the right time? Thoughts?Paul Criderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16235745213619044291noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-89629477456598250722010-12-30T04:15:10.723-05:002010-12-30T04:15:10.723-05:00Leyla: Thanks! I'm glad you like the 13th depo...Leyla: Thanks! I'm glad you like the 13th depository.<br /><br />You are right that Moiraine is also another contender for an archangel, albeit one who can't channel much unaided. Until her rescue we didn't know what condition Moiraine would be in - whether she would be able to channel at all, or whether she would have the angreal she tore from Lanfear's hand, for instance.Lindahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14767984732078916662noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-61944886036155131602010-12-29T20:29:39.398-05:002010-12-29T20:29:39.398-05:00When you were talking about Zoroastrian archangels...When you were talking about Zoroastrian archangels - the three female ones, you named Egwene, Nynaeve, and Elayne, or Elayne, Min, and Aviendha. But could it not also be Egwene, Nynaeve, and MOIRAINE, who rescued Rand and the other male archangels in the first place, and whom Min says is crucial to Rand's winning the Last Battle? It just seems more appropriate, somehow, than the two village women, then suddenly Elayne. Why not Aviendha or Min? Because Elayne is a ruler? Well, not always a very wise one. Whereas Egwene is Amyrlin, now, and VERY wise, Nynaeve is immensely powerful and has never forgotten where she came from, (unlike Egwene) and Moiraine may be the wisest of all the characters in the series. There are so many things she says in the Eye of the World that were merely "speculation", but turned out to be absolutely true. The same with her explanation of the *Finns, that they feed on emotion, etc. Anyway, if I had to guess, I would say that the three female archangels are Moiraine, Nynaeve, and Egwene, all three powerful channelers and familiar, but not sexually familiar, with Rand. Although Rand's lovers would seem equally valid, I believe that their struggle against the Shadow is different - they help as much by loving Rand and showing that he CAN love as by accomplishing their own particular goals (Min applying her acute philosophical mind to the Prophecies and reading people for Rand, Elayne and Aviendha setting the weather aright, etc.)<br /><br />This is just my humble idea. You seem to be incredible at unraveling the utter complexities of these books than any other site! This is definitely my favorite WOT-based site, btw.Leylanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-70662874981673413802010-12-17T21:41:49.600-05:002010-12-17T21:41:49.600-05:00Anon: Thanks for your reply! Good points.
You'...Anon: Thanks for your reply! Good points.<br /><br />You've picked out some very appropriate verses. <br /><br />There are many verses in the Bible that fit WOT very well.Lindahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14767984732078916662noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-11989102250791751022010-12-15T21:28:28.549-05:002010-12-15T21:28:28.549-05:00The description of Shayol Ghul also sounds pretty ...The description of Shayol Ghul also sounds pretty familiar.<br /><br />Exodus 19:16<br /><i>And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud; so that all the people that was in the camp trembled.</i><br /><br />Exodus 19:18<br /><i>And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the LORD descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly.</i><br /><br />There's also this rather troubling line from the New Testament that sounds like something the Dark One would have said to the Forsaken back in the day:<br /><br />Matthew 19:29<br /><i>And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.</i>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-37148990659535923002010-05-28T07:13:48.055-04:002010-05-28T07:13:48.055-04:00R-K: I'm going by this quote:
tarvalon.net Q&...R-K: I'm going by this quote:<br /><br />tarvalon.net Q&A 26 February 2003<br /><br />Q: Was Ishamael lying when he told Rand that the hero of the Light had turned to Shadow in other lifetimes?<br /><br />RJ: No, he was not. Even those who lie sometimes tell the truth when it serves their purposes. <br /><br />Later RJ implied Ishy was lying - or discouraged people from believing Ishy. But this quote seems reliable. It's not early, so I doubt he changed the theology.Lindahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14767984732078916662noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-27266070351784239112010-05-25T03:19:39.507-04:002010-05-25T03:19:39.507-04:00"Furthermore, the Creator’s champion has chan..."Furthermore, the Creator’s champion has changed sides in Ages past and fought for the Dark One"<br /><br />I thought this was just Ishy making stuff up as usual? Even if it had happened, how could he possibly know? And if it had happened, how come the Dark One didn't win?<br /><br />Rurouni_KenshinAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-84157100093601628722010-02-09T05:26:51.975-05:002010-02-09T05:26:51.975-05:00Actually, Rand does have a few things to do with h...Actually, Rand does have a few things to do with his feet. In the Fires of Heaven, while battling Rahvin in the Royal Palace he is stabbed through the heel by one of the red filaments I believe as well as being bitten by fish while in T'A'R. Also in The Shadow Rising, when he Skims to Rhuidean following Asmodean his gateway closes slicing off the heel of his boot.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00029776881338781618noreply@blogger.com