tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post8881290264727189371..comments2024-01-14T15:52:43.644-05:00Comments on The Thirteenth Depository - A Wheel of Time Blog: The Eye of the World Read-Through #9 - Looking Forward, Looking BackDominichttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17610557134981958201noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-8133040572883796222009-05-02T19:07:00.000-04:002009-05-02T19:07:00.000-04:00I believe that Kari or her semblance will feature ...I believe that Kari or her semblance will feature again before the end, so time will tell whether she is real or not!Lindahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14767984732078916662noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-54767557563940912122009-05-01T03:52:00.000-04:002009-05-01T03:52:00.000-04:00Linda's comment on how Kari knew so much about Ran...Linda's comment on how Kari knew so much about Rand etc. This has been duplicated before by Moghedien, who tried to trap Egwene in the dreamworld. The characters were knowledgeable of her and interacted as if they knew her. It seems to be a characteristic of TAR which somehow reads the person's mind and extrapolates a scenario. It might be similar to how the Accepted ter'angreal works.Dr Saidinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00674226467420637144noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-12401675525712910732009-04-29T15:41:00.000-04:002009-04-29T15:41:00.000-04:00Regarding why the Egwene & Nynaeve images diss...Regarding why the Egwene & Nynaeve images dissipated immediately while the Kari image did not ... it could simply be a matter of Rand's degree of certainty/uncertainty.<br /><br />At that moment, Rand was certain that Egwene & Nynaeve were alive and safely away from there. That certainty enabled him to quash Ishamael's TAR puppets immediately.<br /><br />However, the only thing he was certain of re Kari was that she was dead. And although he tried to convince himself that that fact was enough to keep her from Ishamael's clutches, I suspect that subconsciously he wasn't entirely certain. There was doubt in his mind (whether he was consciously aware of it or not), and that doubt prevented him from quashing Kari's image like he did Egwene's & Nynaeve's.<br /><br />Everything Kari said about Rand freeing her, and her subsequent torture, can be attributed to Ishamael trying to make Rand despair and submit to him. The idea being that Ishamael would then spare Kari once Rand submitted.<br /><br />But instead of submitting, Rand used the OP to destroy the puppet Fades that were torturing Kari. This success enabled him to subconsciously take control of the Kari image from Ishamael and cause her to thank him for returning her to the Light.<br /><br />I'm not 100% convinced this is correct, but like Ben, Dom, and Mark I think it is the much more likely scenario.<br /><br />The only other plausible option (as I see it) is that Kari was a Darkfriend (having been seduced by the Shadow's "honeyed tongue" at some point, as her image said), which enabled the DO to capture and hold her soul (suggesting that the DO captures every oathbound DF soul at the moment of their deaths, regardless whether he intends to reincarnate them or not). <br /><br />This idea eliminates the problem of how the DO could have captured Kari's soul but not, say, Rahvin's or Be'lal's. In the latters' cases, they were balefired out of existance before the DO had a chance to grab their souls. In the former's case, the DO was able to capture Kari's soul (15+ years ago) because she was an oathbound DF and wasn't killed by balefire.<br /><br />But I have two problems with that option. One, I just don't see Tam marrying a woman who could be seduced by the Shadow. And two, it seems unlikely to me that the DO could capture DF souls while the Seals were still intact, unless perhaps the DFs were taken to SG first, and killed in the Pit of Doom (say). But ~700 leagues away (Kari died in the Two Rivers)? I rather doubt it. At DragonCon '05, RJ said that the DO has greater access to people/souls at SG than elsewhere. Here is the quote:<br /><br /><I>Because of the Bore and the fact that the Bore is best perceived ... the Bore doesn’t really exist in Shayol Ghul, the Bore exists everywhere, its simply in Shayol Ghul where it can be perceived most easily. By the same token he has greater access to people at Shayol Ghul than he does elsewhere, or did.</I>The "or did" caveat at the end simply indicates that now that the Seals have started breaking, the DO's reach is greater than it was. And, consequently, the DO can now grab souls further from SG than he could when the Seals were still intact. Presumbably, this wouldn't have been the case when Kari died 15+ years ago.BobHhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06499024096535607638noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-41725021803131094642009-04-29T15:34:00.000-04:002009-04-29T15:34:00.000-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.BobHhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06499024096535607638noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-12164410775291930332009-04-29T15:10:00.000-04:002009-04-29T15:10:00.000-04:00I agree Mark. There's also the major problem of S...I agree Mark. There's also the major problem of Shai'tan finding out about Kari in the first place. The only way is through Ishamael and Rand's nightmares about his origins since Winternight. And with that we're back to 'she was just illusion' made by Ishamael - what happens with her at the end is just a sign of the strength of Rand's will, and the decline of Ishamael's in that battle.<br /><br />Anything else gives Shai'tan way too much power at the time of EOTW. And that may be precisely the point: RJ may have put that ambiguous scene in there to show a teaser of Shai'tan's powers over ghosts, in case EOTW remained a single book. With the further books and the additional knowledge of TAR we have gained, it's now obvious that Kari was fake... but it doesn't mean Shai'tan won't have gained this sort of power over the 'soul pool' by the time of the Last Battle, but by EOTW it stretches credibility, IMO - the barriers between all the layers of reality had not quite weakened enough, I think.Dominichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17610557134981958201noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-69839086429719757392009-04-29T14:48:00.000-04:002009-04-29T14:48:00.000-04:00I agree with Ben and Dominic... I don't think that...I agree with Ben and Dominic... I don't think that was Kari, but rather just a puppet which Ishamael conjured up.<br /><br />Maybe I'm naive, but I don't believe the Dark One can harm you or touch you when you die, unless you've given your soul to him. It's a classically Christian way of looking at things, but I think RJ prescribed to it in this sense. He's constantly reinforced the fact that the Shadow can never possess you unless you give yourself willingly.<br /><br />Apart from that, Ishamael is not the Dark One. He could never conjure up a soul. Even talented Dreamwalkers need to find a real, living person and pull them into the dreamworld, and Ishamael even experiences trouble finding the boys in this very book. <br /><br />As for Rand having to withstand Kari's torment. Ishamael is an accomplished dreamwalker. His images cannot be unmade unless by a more experienced or powerful dreamwalker, which Rand is not.Dr Saidinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00674226467420637144noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-46226650893729419522009-04-29T12:49:00.000-04:002009-04-29T12:49:00.000-04:00"I wonder if Rand even remembers the voice speakin..."I wonder if Rand even remembers the voice speaking to him, or if that memory was lost while he was unconscious after battling Ishamael? He seems to remember everything else that happened at the Eye, though, so I assume he remembers the voice, too."<br /><br />Given the non-interference of the Creator, it would make sense that all memory of his 'intervention' (a fairly passive one at that) vanished as soon as Rand got the point, and he won't remember this before he dies and go wait in TAR. There the Heroes seem to understand a bit more of the nature of the world than other humans do.<br /><br />It's more than a little odd Rand never refers to it again, especially in his early inner debate about not being the Dragon. I think it's rather obvious he no longer has this memory.<br /><br />I don't expect the Creator to have much of a role at all, unless possibly there is a POV of Rand while he is dead - in that case I would tend to expect the Creator to speak to his Champion again, at least if his mission has already been accomplished.Dominichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17610557134981958201noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-64701282591653367202009-04-29T11:43:00.000-04:002009-04-29T11:43:00.000-04:00I've always thought it a little odd that Rand has ...I've always thought it a little odd that Rand has never pondered (at least on screen) who spoke to him (about being the Chosen One) at the end of EotW, especially when he waxed philosophical about the Creator and his practice of non-interference in CoT ch.24.<br /><br />I wonder if Rand even remembers the voice speaking to him, or if that memory was lost while he was unconscious after battling Ishamael? He seems to remember everything else that happened at the Eye, though, so I assume he remembers the voice, too.<br /><br />If he does remember, I hope we have a scene in AMoL in which Rand ponders the voice before it makes another appearance (if indeed it does). Understanding what Rand thinks of the voice beforehand would make a 2nd appearance much more interesting/meaningful, IMO.<br /><br />Anyway ... I wholeheartedly agree that the voice was the Creator's.BobHhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06499024096535607638noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-83798221652332669662009-04-29T00:27:00.000-04:002009-04-29T00:27:00.000-04:00Minor quibble.
The first mention of Rand losing a...Minor quibble.<br /><br />The first mention of Rand losing a hand is actually in the very end of Ch 19:<I>Shadow's Waiting</I>, when after hearing the history of Shadar Logoth and the Story of Caar One-Hand, Rand dreams of being "a little boy again, carrying Tam's sword and with a cradle strapped to his back, running through empty streets, pursued by Mordeth, who shouted that <B>he only wanted his hand.</B>"<br /><br />This has always seemed to me to be foreshadowing that the loss of rands hand is tied to the recovery of his humanity.SteelBlaiddhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01233479838726084794noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-60124410544422812762009-04-28T23:03:00.000-04:002009-04-28T23:03:00.000-04:00That doesn't work for me. How could Kari say what ...That doesn't work for me. How could Kari say what Rand wanted, when Rand was able to will away Egwene and Nynaeve, but not Kari. He had to endure her abuse before killing the Myrddraal. If he could have done as he wanted/wished for Kari, she would have vanished with the other two figures and not been tortured. Hardly a wish-fulfillment.Lindahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14767984732078916662noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-87570252965181618952009-04-28T22:34:00.000-04:002009-04-28T22:34:00.000-04:00I agree with you Ben. I think the odds Kari was r...I agree with you Ben. I think the odds Kari was real are slim to non existant given what we know about windows of opportunity to seize souls. What she said is just the result of Rand taking control of Ishamael's conjuration before it dimmed away. We see something similar early in EOTW, when what Rand has on his mind seem to influence the people of Tar Valon Ishamael had created.<br /><br />Ishamael seems to have a 'skill' for conjuring 'TAR puppets'. His 'creations' are often populated. He must have picked Kari up from Rand's dreams he spied on - Rand doesn't mention that she looks different than his dim memory of her, which I think is a telling sign this was just a fake Kari made to look just like Rand's mental image of her. <br /><br />OTOH, it's clear that in EOTW RJ intended to leave this matter ambiguous, as it was a nice little touch to have there if the book sold badly and the deal for the other five books fell through.Dominichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17610557134981958201noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-20160249693292869442009-04-28T22:24:00.000-04:002009-04-28T22:24:00.000-04:00I really don't think that the Kari conjured up by ...I really don't think that the Kari conjured up by Ishamael at the end of the book is the real Kari.<br /><br />For one thing, she is summoned exactly like the other two - Egwene and Nynaeve - so it seems likely that she comes from the same place too, that is, dreamstuff.<br /><br />We've never seen Ishamael have the power to control dead souls yet either, as far as I can see. Though he was likely partly responsible for the creation of Slayer, so who knows. This close to Shayol Ghul, it might be possible.<br /><br />More importantly though, we know from the whole reincarnated Forsaken and balefire conflict that Shai'tan can only catch a soul during a certain window of time. Now, twenty years is well beyond that window, since Rahvin and apparently Be'lal were unattainable due to a much smaller time loss.<br /><br />Basically, for Ishamael to have access to Kari's soul, if it is at all possible for him to have access to souls, Shai'tan would have to capture it twenty years ago, long before he had any reason to do such a thing.<br /><br />It could be due to a shift in how the rules work, as RJ had not necessarily decided on this yet, but I prefer to think it was simply Rand's dreamwalking abilities manifesting themselves - basically, Kari said what she did because Rand wanted her to.Fanatic-Templarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14788900776054473413noreply@blogger.com