tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post8939197194120017897..comments2024-01-14T15:52:43.644-05:00Comments on The Thirteenth Depository - A Wheel of Time Blog: Aiel ProphecyDominichttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17610557134981958201noreply@blogger.comBlogger22125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-63580913394167125182022-01-24T23:17:26.884-05:002022-01-24T23:17:26.884-05:00The rings ter'angreal showed many possible fut...The rings ter'angreal showed many possible futures based on many possible Choices women that pass through it could make. That is, the many ways a single thread in the Pattern could be woven. A sure sign the rings were built based on Portal Stones were the similar viewingsR and his group had when the Portal stone they were using malfunctuoned. Though Rand's visions included his entire lifetime, the rings showed what could happen to a person from the moment they'd entered them on. The columns, after they've been reset, also show the future from the moment the person who enters them - Aviendha's viewings are still possible to comme true. The test would be, would she vmbe willing to go out of thec and work to avoir the ill fate they showed, as dying inside would have prevented the future she'd seen. The most important question is whether the columns show the worst possible future, or they show the natural outcome of events if the person who enters them does nothing to change them. Maybe Aviendha missing from the viewings That is, if a person has terrific viewings of the future, would it be possible to ACHIEVE them, as opposed to fight them, and if the columns showed good outcomes of events, would people actually be tested? If the columns only showed possible doom and people who went through saw no way to avoid it, i.e. weren't strong enough to become Wise One or Clan chief, would they die inside and thus prevent it? And if the columns showed the future, and with the Aiel outside the Waste, would Dreaming die out as a Tallent of the Aiel?beligakidnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-79480589179739956622017-04-14T08:56:50.119-04:002017-04-14T08:56:50.119-04:00[Rand] on a boat with three women whose faces they...[Rand] on a boat with three women whose faces they could not see and a scale tilting first one way and then the other. <br /><br />Is it possible this isn't actually related to the 'Three on a boat and he who is dead yet lives.'<br /><br />Because Rand on a boat with the scale going one way and then the other could be something far more innocuous and mundane, that still had huge prophecies about it that turned out rather anticlimactic. <br /><br />That is the making of the Sea Folk's Bargain with the Coramoor. <br /><br />Rand made it with three women on a boat, there were other folks around, but he and these three were the ones to make the deal. Rand with Merana, Rafela bargain against Harine. We even see how the scale went one way then the other, since Rand came in and just 'taverened' it and everything was going his way, then he left Merana and Rafela to finish it off and without his taverenness there to steady the deal it goes downhill and they make agreements Rand is not thrilled about when he learns of them. fudgyvmpnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-17196373809484771842013-06-21T02:47:10.926-04:002013-06-21T02:47:10.926-04:00That's true about balance, Affodell.
Bair th...That's true about balance, Affodell. <br /><br />Bair thinks it should not become obsolete.Lindahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14767984732078916662noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-10291905100806522022013-06-17T21:24:53.288-04:002013-06-17T21:24:53.288-04:00The idea that Rand and Aviendha both would need to...The idea that Rand and Aviendha both would need to pass through Rhuidean before it's obsolescence makes some sense with 'balance'between male/females and saidin/saidar.Affodellnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-16200664979551611972012-01-11T04:45:18.090-05:002012-01-11T04:45:18.090-05:00Anon: so sorry I took so long to reply! I missed y...Anon: so sorry I took so long to reply! I missed your question. <br /><br />A fossicker, one who fossicks, is searching for objects from which to make gains. And you are right: it is mostly Australians who use this word.<br /><br />Vicki: scales are usually two way, not 3. I see the swinging scales as reflecting the outcome of the battle against the Shadow. This is supported by Nicola's related prophecy that the future teeters on the edge of a blade.Lindahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14767984732078916662noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-38808198485951857632011-12-19T01:31:27.301-05:002011-12-19T01:31:27.301-05:00I certainly hope that Aviendha's vision of the...I certainly hope that Aviendha's vision of the future is a probable future based on the present situation, rather than a definite one - that would be too heartbreaking! It also seems to me that in RJ's world, prophecies don't always come true, and the way they come to be can be altered as well. A few thoughts on these visions and your commentary:<br /><br />- Padra and her siblings: I'm not sure if these are the children Rand and Aviendha will actually have. It could be that they will have completely different children, or even no children at all. The 'oddness' of these children in Min's viewing could be due to the fact that these are not actual children but only a vision. The fact that Min had a vision of them, and Aviendha saw their faces during her first visit to Rhuidean, could relate to their significance: while no physical children, the vision of them (in Rhuidean) will certainly be a turning point in Aviendha's life. In support of my theory, Min's viewings aren't always literal: cf her viewing of Amys having babies, which in fact referred to Amys acting as the mother in Elayne's and Aviendha's adoption ceremony.<br /><br />- The peace pact, Aiel and Seanchan: I think you unfairly place all the blame for breaking the Dragon's Peace on the Aiel and absolve the Seanchan. Aiel's share of the blame is clear (especially in the case Oncala and Hehyal, but also in other generations). However, to create a lasting peace Rand had to make the Seanchan agree to leave other nations, and their channellers, along. Thus, the Seanchan likely broke the peace pact themselves by collaring Aiel channellers. At this point, the Aiel simply react in the only way they know and are conditioned to. Likewise, Hehyal's remark that the Seanchan 'forced him [the Dragon] to bow to their Empress' could be a misinterpretation of the facts, or a correct reading of the situation. After all, Seanchan Prophecies of the Dragon state that the Dragon has to 'kneel before the Crystal Throne' in order to defeat the Dark One; no doubt Seanchan will try to make Rand acknowledge the Empress' superiority to fit in with their version of the prophecy. I see this as a warning for Rand to insist on equality (or even superiority) in all his future dealings with the Seanchan.<br /><br />Finally, I've always seen the Wise Ones' dream and Nicola's prophecy of Rand in a boat with three women as paralleling Min's viewing of Rand being loved by three women. Hence, the three women are Min, Elayne and Aviendha. I see the tilting scales as relating to the three women as well: in fact, Rand tends to have a 'primary' lover most times whose identity alternates between Min, Elayne and Aviendha, rather than living with his three lovers simultaneously, as an Aiel would with multiple wives.Vickinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-7709348655089055982011-12-19T01:30:30.495-05:002011-12-19T01:30:30.495-05:00A very interesting article. However, I don't a...A very interesting article. However, I don't agree with the Moses/ Israelites parallel. Rand is certainly no Moses in his dealings with the Aiel; he doesn't free them from slavery, and redemption is the furthest thing from his mind. All of Rand's intentions towards the Aiel so far (until his epiphany, that is) have been governed by short-term expediency and a lack of empathy. Rand sees a nation of extraordinary warriors, loyal to him on the basis of a prophecy he doesn't really understand, free of alliances with other nations (they divide the whole world into Aiel and enemies) that could lead to conflicting loyalties, and convinced that they should serve him, mostly with no ulterior motive. Even the Wise Ones who try to manipulate Rand do so for no worse purpose than to preserve as many of their people as possible. So Rand decides to use them as his personal army and bodyguards, to help him subjugate nations and to fight in Tarmon Gaidon. At no point does Rand try to prepare the Aiel for a life of peace. Even imparting Aiel's past commitment to the Way of the Leaf isn't intentional: Rand simply blurts this out to prove he'd really been through the glass columns in Rhuidean, without giving much thought to what the information (which isn't widely known) will do to the Aiel. Rand doesn't have any long-term vision for the Aiel's future role in the world; Padra's thoughts (in Avienda's vision) that her father had never known what to do with the Aiel is consistent with his attitudes and behaviour so far. <br /><br />Thus, I can't agree with you placing all the blame on the Aiel for failing to comply with Rand's wishes for peace. Up till now, Rand has only been interested in exploiting the Aiel's fighting skills; the last thing he'd want would be to give them ideas about returning to the Way of the Leaf. As for after Tarmon Gaidon... Any good leader has to realise that they can't expect people to turn their entire mentality and culture on its head overnight. We've seen what the sudden revelation of the Aiel's past did to the nation; even many prospective clan chiefs and Wise Ones don't survive such a revelation. Rand, as well as the leaders of the Aiel themselves, have to gradually prepare the people for a future change in their role, and for the necessary changes in their culture. Hopefully, Avienda will share her insights with the Wise Ones and Rand, which will cause all of them to give some serious thought to Aiel's future.Vickinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-79647833068521245572011-11-15T10:36:48.898-05:002011-11-15T10:36:48.898-05:00Um, Linda? WTF is a fossicker? Please enlighten me...Um, Linda? WTF is a fossicker? Please enlighten me as to the use of your crazy overseas slang! :pAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-47866005442847948232011-03-17T04:46:04.028-04:002011-03-17T04:46:04.028-04:00Linda, I wonder why you didn't consider that t...Linda, I wonder why you didn't consider that the third woman on the boat could be Nynaeve. After all, she can see a storm rising beyond the horizon.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-25156531585715487502011-02-15T06:13:35.569-05:002011-02-15T06:13:35.569-05:00Leyla: It could be. Really, we've not had any ...Leyla: It could be. Really, we've not had any other such mysterious being like Nakomi before whether she came from the ter'angreal, or time-travelled by Portal Stone. Aviendha seems to be awake. sotaht probably precludes a dream-figure.Lindahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14767984732078916662noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-33660829554981106182011-02-13T23:03:25.839-05:002011-02-13T23:03:25.839-05:00This is totally out of left field, but in ToM, whe...This is totally out of left field, but in ToM, when Aviendha is trying to probe the columns with saidar, she notes how vast it is, how it almost has an entity, or presence, of its own. This ter'angreal seems specially made for the Aiel. Could it be that in the Age of Legends, the Aes Sedai who constructed the glass pillars created something so complex, so profound, that an entity formed from it, in the "avatar" of Nakomi? That could explain her a) middle-aged appearance [if she/it were taking an Aes Sedai avatar she'd have to be old indeed, tho perhaps not old enough, to look as she did], b) her mysterious abilities, such as cooking delicious food from a simple turtle and roots that Aviendha notes is very Aiel-like [her mother always used them in cooking, she said]; also, her sudden appearance/disappearance from the camp, and c) her constructive conversation with Aviendha, leading her down the right path for the Aiel. My point is, there have been such entities in sci-fi and fantasy before (I'm thinking of Orson Scott Card here, in the form of Jane the computer-like thing) and one theme with these entities is that it typically takes a verrrry long time (3 thousand years, perhaps?) for the thing, AI, whatever, to appear. So could Nakomi not be a manifestation of the ter'angreal, specifically tailored for the Aiel, and thus she appears as an Aiel? Her humble appearance is also telling - she is not garbed in the clothes of a Wise One, but of a regular Aiel. Perhaps a Wise One would have intimidated Aviendha too much or made her suspicious. Also, her strange reply of saying that she is close to and yet far from her clan makes more sense when you consider that Rhuidean is not far, but that its visions don't exist in normal existence. Anyway, I'd really like to hear what people think about this, because the mystery of Nakomi is the one thing that has been driving me crazy from ToM, even more than the red-veiled Aiel-like shadowspawn.Leylanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-77934698182969867172011-02-12T05:45:46.788-05:002011-02-12T05:45:46.788-05:00Terez: I always put the loosening of the Pattern c...Terez: I always put the loosening of the Pattern caveat in every prophetic article. The loosening of the Pattern occurred from CoT on. When the 'unnatural' things really got going - not just the odd bubble of evil.<br /><br />The kids never knew their father. And Aviendha seems to have been gone for a while - and the kids are now only 17, so they weren't fully grown when she left/went. That is also early for Min to die. <br /><br />It's also rather strange that while she is experiencing the visions Aviendha never wonders why she, Elayne, Tuon, all the Wise Ones we know, etc aren't around 17 years after the Last Battle. As a plot device that bugs me. A couple of generations of channellers vanish without comment. I guess I should add that.<br /><br />There were Nicola's paraphrased Foretellings in CoT. Rand doing nine impossible things, etc.Lindahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14767984732078916662noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-35126474573175742142011-02-12T05:32:14.752-05:002011-02-12T05:32:14.752-05:00Mattrickster: She seems to have knowledge of the f...Mattrickster: She seems to have knowledge of the future. She also hints that she is either in a Tel'aran'rhiod reflection of the real world, or that she has projected back into the past. She may be able to channel; all she would need to do is disguise her ability and reverse her weaves (if she made any where Aviendha would have felt them).<br /><br />I don't think she is a Forsaken. She is too constructive.Lindahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14767984732078916662noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-29704139015937904972011-02-12T04:17:30.500-05:002011-02-12T04:17:30.500-05:00I had forgotten about that quote about the looseni...I had forgotten about that quote about the loosening Pattern. Brandon has indicated that the Pattern is unraveling due to the use of balefire, which would make a lot of sense of course, but I wonder how far back we should consider that to be relevant. I'm guessing starting around WH or COT or so. There haven't been any Foretellings since then that I recall, but Min's viewings would be affected. Dreams...they were never all that concrete in the first place. In the same vein, the Rhuidean vision need not be concrete even without the loosening of the Pattern - I figured it showed the most likely future based on Mirror Worlds, but not one that couldn't be altered.<br /><br />Also, Aviendha and Elayne especially need not have been collared or killed. If Rand survives the Last Battle as the Aelfinn say he will, then Aviendha and Elayne might join him when Min dies, or even before (as soon as the kids are grown).Terezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12417142245785029171noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-13695881018085947352011-02-11T20:55:27.197-05:002011-02-11T20:55:27.197-05:00Thanks Linda for another great article.
Just one q...Thanks Linda for another great article.<br />Just one question - Who is Nakomi? She is there and then she is gone without a trace. <br />When I read TOM, I couldn't work out whether she is just a travelling Aiel or a disguised Forsaken trying to encourage Aviendha into returning the Aiel to the Waste and weakening the cause of the Light, or if she is an agent of the Creator - trying to make Aviendha see that upholding Peace is the honourable thing. What do you think?Mattricksternoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-90550955627558604272011-02-11T05:38:06.599-05:002011-02-11T05:38:06.599-05:00Anon: I'm kinda doubtful about Manetheren beca...Anon: I'm kinda doubtful about Manetheren because Perrin made that agreement with the Seanchan and also with Elayne that he wouldn't raise Manetheren.<br /><br />tball: I agree with you that there won't be many Aiel that will dedicate themselves to the Way. Rand will pour the Aiel's blood out like water on sand, after all.Lindahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14767984732078916662noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-28582505433929529242011-02-10T15:16:21.290-05:002011-02-10T15:16:21.290-05:00I believe that the "remnant of a remnant"...I believe that the "remnant of a remnant" that the Wise Ones have referred to as all that's left of the Aiel means that very few will choose to return to the Way of the Leaf. Just enough Aiel will choose to help Rand win the Last Battle, and then save themselves from total annihilation afterward.t ballnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-56672885045664236032011-02-10T12:30:32.388-05:002011-02-10T12:30:32.388-05:00The pact of the griffin - as you noted - could be ...The pact of the griffin - as you noted - could be considered a combination of a Lion and an Eagle. While you mention that the Lion would be Andor, isn't it likely that the Eagle is Manetheren? This would make the nations in that pact Andor, Ghealdan and Saldea. Or possibly just Manetheren and Andor - depending on whether Mantheren is re-formed after TG.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-53601229184359576852010-08-05T16:49:53.113-04:002010-08-05T16:49:53.113-04:00Dagger at the throad could be Fain, since he has a...Dagger at the throad could be Fain, since he has a dagger.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-273148784423802862010-02-26T15:00:39.822-05:002010-02-26T15:00:39.822-05:00Branwhin here, I really enjoy this site!
I've...Branwhin here, I really enjoy this site!<br /><br />I've always thought the dagger at Rand's throat was Osan'gar/Aginor. He and Aran'gar/Balthamel are named for duelling daggers, after all.<br /><br />That said, Taim also makes sense.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-82800357051285802232010-02-25T12:22:15.427-05:002010-02-25T12:22:15.427-05:00I think it would be possible for Egwene to see bey...I think it would be possible for Egwene to see beyond since she is a dreamer.Sperahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05199364545827822181noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-22997772430699720242010-01-09T15:09:07.388-05:002010-01-09T15:09:07.388-05:00Nicola's Foretelling identified the three on t...Nicola's Foretelling identified the three on the boat as "the lion sword, the dedicated spear and she who sees beyond". Given that the first is Elayne Trakand and the second is Aviendha, the third is most probably Min ("Elmindreda"), not Egwene. It seems likely to me that it is some property of the bonding between these four that enables Rand to be revived after the Pit of Dhoom. This is an analogue to the properties of the Warder Bond, and the benefits to the Warder.P. R. Widinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14502430370037536086noreply@blogger.com