tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post2933100723401371482..comments2024-01-14T15:52:43.644-05:00Comments on The Thirteenth Depository - A Wheel of Time Blog: Origin of the Place NamesDominichttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17610557134981958201noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-23774051481846623352012-03-02T10:45:57.773-05:002012-03-02T10:45:57.773-05:00I've always wanted to say something about Hind...I've always wanted to say something about Hinderstap from the first time I read it and I immidiately thought of the word "Hinder" which is dutch for obstacle, nuisance, disruption... <br />and "stap"<br />which is dutch for "step". <br />Actually, I have seen it being used once or twice. (the word hinderstap). It was really weird when reading the dutch translation of the book.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-49633382738517461672011-12-14T07:22:23.905-05:002011-12-14T07:22:23.905-05:00I wonder if RJ was a Biblical scholar, particularl...I wonder if RJ was a Biblical scholar, particularly in the original Hebrew. While Shinar can be found in the English translation of the Bible, he would have had to read the Hebrew to come up with Arafel. (I'm not familiar with the Apocalypse stories, but the word 'arafel', meaning 'dense darkness', appears in the account of G-d's revelation at Mt Sinai in the Book of Exodus.) <br />If the Hebrew scholar hypothesis holds, 'Malkier' may also be an allusion to 'malkei or', Hebrew for 'kings of light'. After all, for most of the series Malkier is a one-man nation represented by Lan, the king who is rather prominent in the battle on the side of Light.Vickinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-45376654806434689632011-06-11T08:21:33.461-04:002011-06-11T08:21:33.461-04:00Mik:Yep, Babylon is/was located in Mesopotamia.
A...Mik:Yep, Babylon is/was located in Mesopotamia.<br /><br />And of course the whole two rivers things isn't coincidence! :)Lindahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14767984732078916662noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-25383046292508987332011-06-10T09:17:29.332-04:002011-06-10T09:17:29.332-04:00What might be nice to add to the info on Shienar, ...What might be nice to add to the info on Shienar, is that "Shinar" was located somewhere in Mesopotamia. <br />In both ancient Greek and Arabic Mesopotamia means something like 'land between rivers' (meaning the Tigris and Euphrates). <br />It is therefor believed that "Shinar" is derived from <i>Shene nahar</i>. And <i>that</i> is Hebrew for <i>Two Rivers</i>. :)<br /><br />Coincidence? ;)<br /><br />Cheers,<br />MikMikhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18311756070240873896noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-42900179424475467552010-12-11T18:26:24.898-05:002010-12-11T18:26:24.898-05:00An interesting idea on the origin of Seanchan.An interesting idea on the origin of Seanchan.Lindahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14767984732078916662noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-49303642782462081432010-12-10T18:28:11.715-05:002010-12-10T18:28:11.715-05:00I think Seanchan is a reference to the future &quo...I think Seanchan is a reference to the future "cruel empire of Tsan-Chan" from the Cthulhu Mythos.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-13314778550441615232010-12-09T21:07:01.106-05:002010-12-09T21:07:01.106-05:00The field of Merrilor immediately brought to mind ...The field of Merrilor immediately brought to mind Tolkein. Pellenor, I think (don't have the books with me) is the name of a field of battle in Middle Earth history and I figured Merrilor was a reference to that.t ballnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-61942008739973357752010-05-24T22:37:51.448-04:002010-05-24T22:37:51.448-04:00Anonymous above said it for me, and I'm glad y...Anonymous above said it for me, and I'm glad you understood it too. But if people are asking why X wasn't included, and you don't know the answer, the right thing to do is say "I don't know," not throw something out there.<br /><br />"I don't know" is okay, Linda. We still love you for making and curating this awesome site!<br /><br />When you reorganize, maybe put the ones that really found something on top, and then have a speculative section below. Having just a list of names from each region is useful if you find patterns (again, only point out those you can support).<br /><br />Ultimately, I don't think there is that much information to be gleaned from RJ's place names. Tolkien, who was keenly interested in language, put worlds of meaning into all of his place names, and it enriched his world. RJ is nowhere near the etymologist that Tolkien is. He followed some forms, but as we've seen with familiar names, RJ mostly grabbed a name that looked pronounceable, maybe moved a letter or two, and let it stand. Some are direct references, and insightful (e.g. Tar Valon/Avalon), while others (<i>"Cairhien: Cairhien was probably derived from Cairenes, people of Cairo. Towns with similar names are Cairire and Caibarien, both in Peru."</i>) come off like a 10-second Google search.<br /><br />For <b>Cair</b>hien (and, indirectly <b>Caem</b>lyn), I believe we're actually seeing a real RJ attempt at etymological place naming (or, as a native English speaker, an accidental one). "Cair" or "Caim," both from the Welsh "Caer," meaning "fort" or "castle," equivalent to the Anglo-Saxon "burgh."<br /><br /><b>Cam</b>elot and <b>Cam</b>lann are place-names of Arthurian myth that retain the Q-Celtic (Britannic) "m" sound of a hard-r (would have sounded like "Karm.") <b>Caer</b>narfon, <b>Caer</b>fuddai, <b>Cam</b>bridge, <b>Caer</b>leon are modern cities that retain the name. "Chester" (Wor<b>cester</b>, Lei<b>cester</b>, Glou<b>cester</b>) is a Latin translation - the Welsh names of these towns (e.g. Leicester = "Caerlyr" or "King Lear's Fort") retain the old word.<br /><br />C.S. Lewis' "Cair Paravel" is a likely use in fantasy.<br /><br />Thus, <b>Cair</b>hien could be an accidental or purposeful reference to real-world castle towns (he would later do this purposefully with "Far" for "Fort" in place-names for Shienar, and whether directly "Lyn's Castle" or indirectly (a reference to Camlann), so is <b>Caem</b>lyn.<br /><br />While we're on it, "Andor" I think is either a reference or just a familiar use of Tolkien's Sindarin naming conventions, where "or" mean "land," examples: Gondor (land of stone), Pelennor (fenced land), Arnor (land of the king). If so, it's extremely tenuous, but mentionable in a would-be-cool way, that "Andor" literally means "Land of [R]and," i.e. "Randland."Misopogonhttp://www.thewrightstache.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-29597983400401468262010-04-20T17:51:00.804-04:002010-04-20T17:51:00.804-04:00In a response to Frank's, "And I always r...In a response to Frank's, "And I always read "Aryth Ocean" as "Earth Ocean."":<br /><br /> Avast ye, landlubber! Ye recall that the name "Aryth Ocean" is a <i>Westlands</i> origin name for that body of water. Foreigners call that same body of water different names:<br /><br /> Ishamael called it <i>"World Sea"</i> in tEoW book, Chapter 14 <br /><br /> Furyk Karede referred to it, as <i>"Eastern Sea"</i> in CoT, Chapter 4<br /><br /> Savvy?Felix Paxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16359757703282965478noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-53504222131443573112010-04-20T16:32:50.177-04:002010-04-20T16:32:50.177-04:00"Isn't "Baerlon" much closer to..."Isn't "Baerlon" much closer to "Berlin" than anything?"<br /><br />With the ironworks there, the source of the name may have been inspired to Jordan from the german metallurgic industry.<br /><br />"Rhuidean: Rhuidean was probably derived from Ruidian, a town in China. The name also implies ruined, which is what it became."<br /><br /><br />Isn't a far more likely source the common name bruidhean? That's what the magical and hidden cities of the Aes Sidhe in Irish folklore (they are joined by the fairy paths, much like the Ways), plus the spelling is just one letter away from Rhuidean.<br /><br />Weren't the Irish acknoweldged by Robert Jordan as a big source for the Aiel?<br /><br />-Ted-Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-37858974669453347232010-04-20T14:14:33.306-04:002010-04-20T14:14:33.306-04:00Isn't "Baerlon" much closer to "...Isn't "Baerlon" much closer to "Berlin" than anything?<br /><br />And I always read "Aryth Ocean" as "Earth Ocean."Frankhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03301077496668834657noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-6746509434999061182010-04-19T18:54:07.137-04:002010-04-19T18:54:07.137-04:00This is why this is one of the later articles to b...This is why this is one of the later articles to be republished.<br /><br />The trouble with leaving stuff out is that I get queries as to why. Especially if it happens to be a major place. So they're all there.<br /><br />The majority of the place names are the same or almost the same as real world place names. Not only that, so are many of the character names. Sanderson confirmed that RJ used place names for character names on Twitter:<br /><br /><i>Most readers know that Robert Jordan looked to real world names and places as inspiration for names in the WoT. In order to help maintain this feel, I’m doing the same.</i><br /><br />Examples are: Kiruna, Jarna Malari, Ispan, Fera, Talene, Zanica.<br /><br />Yes I realise that Cairo isn't derived directly with Ancient Egypt and the worship of the sun, but it has such associations, just as the French Sun King's court and the Land of the Rising Sun were mishmashed together to create Cairhienin society. The latter two societies provided inspiration for the intrigue, clothing and customs and Cairo might have supplied the name.Lindahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14767984732078916662noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-37493335020907559732010-04-19T15:44:41.747-04:002010-04-19T15:44:41.747-04:00It's a very good list. Lots of research there....It's a very good list. Lots of research there. <br /><br />About 30% of these are extremely convincing, including very insightful theories like the joke on Garden Wall (that one has to be dead on the money!).<br /><br />It's a very long list, though. The fun of going through it all is marred a bit by the "completist" bias that made your numerous gems a bit lost in a sea of pure guesses of much more limited interest (and the occasional "loony bin" theory)<br /><br />The problem is, all too often (your excellent finds apart) for every word you've singled out as a "likely" source there are many more which are just as likely, especially when Jordan could have kept the middle and change the beginning, making them very hard to spot in dictionaries and such.<br /><br />And Cairhien derived from an Egyptian name? The name sounds definitely celtic, from northern France/Britain and Ireland. There are plenty of words to choose from: cair and cairn, and rhion, rheen, rienne (a sound pronounced like Jordan's "rhien" and common in toponyms in France/Belgium etc.) etc. and that's even without getting into the older name, which seems built on a celtic model. Cairheen is even a name in an Irish epic. What's Egyptian in Cairhien? Your parallel to the ancient Egyptian sun cult is quite undermined by the fact Cairo is the English rendition of al-Qāhira, an arabic name with no connection whatsover to ancient Egypt or the sun.<br /><br />Your theories on how Jordan derived his prefixes and suffixes (with rare exceptions like Tel which are more convincing) aren't always very convincing either. -drelle from the town of Druelle? I don't think so! There are plenty of real life examples of such particles in many languages without Jordan turning an obscure town name into a prefix/suffix instead of making up something he liked, or that fit words from his Old Tongue. Nor and So for north and south isn't really convincing either since there's no correlation to their locations within Altara. The "So" towns are usually near the river, the nor ones are inland.<br /><br />Overall, I think you might underestimate how much Jordan made up not from geographical names but from already established words in the Old Tongue we know or don't know about and that may come from far more varied sources. There are probably quite a few more ciphers in the names like the ones you have found, maybe especially those for which RW names are not very convincing (Baerlon from Bayon? That sounds very unlikely)<br /><br />Still, the 30% of very good finds and the extra 15% of fairly good guesses are illuminating and fun enough as long as you read through the rest <i>really</i> fast. A bit like RJ's descriptions of clothing... :PAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com