tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post3097987676844208653..comments2024-01-14T15:52:43.644-05:00Comments on The Thirteenth Depository - A Wheel of Time Blog: The Aiel need to adopt the Way of the Leaf before the Last Battle.Dominichttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17610557134981958201noreply@blogger.comBlogger34125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-25688091106561434182012-07-17T19:00:51.516-04:002012-07-17T19:00:51.516-04:00The Aes Sedai do swear to "never use the One ...The Aes Sedai do swear to "never use the One Power to make a weapon for one man to use against another." Nor can they use the Power as a weapon.<br /><br />When making Perrin's hammer, Neald called for the Wise Ones to join him. Perrin is using the hammer against Shadowspawn, anyway, so the Aes Sedai could help make it if they believed that was all he would use it for, because this would not violate their Oath.Lindahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14767984732078916662noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-70352360839329906622012-07-17T18:57:16.600-04:002012-07-17T18:57:16.600-04:00Yes, Adam, the gai'shain Aiel have the right i...Yes, Adam, the gai'shain Aiel have the right idea and this may be a clue to Aviendha. There must be more to the Da'shain Aiel than just being like ga'shain. Much was made of the Covenant, so I think there must be a formal declaration of some kind.<br /><br />I am not sure the red-veiled Aiel are Aiel, and if they were once Aiel, how they have changed and why. One of the many things that has been left for the last book.Lindahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14767984732078916662noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-53402503919076643802012-07-17T16:04:49.310-04:002012-07-17T16:04:49.310-04:00Are there not a huge band of Aiel that have alread...Are there not a huge band of Aiel that have already returned to the way of the leaf? Those who have already refused to give up the white? And what's with the Aiel with the red eyes?Adamnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-11131639538421798902012-07-17T15:59:34.691-04:002012-07-17T15:59:34.691-04:00The Aes Sedai can make power wrought weapons they ...The Aes Sedai can make power wrought weapons they just forgot how after the 3 oaths came into effect. Perrins new hammer?Adamnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-62799804123492675492012-03-31T08:58:52.118-04:002012-03-31T08:58:52.118-04:00I disagree with your view that Aiel need to re-ado...I disagree with your view that Aiel need to re-adopt the Way of the Leaf (as I've commented elsewhere on your blog). An institution of Aiel living according to the Way of the Leaf worked well in a world that 'had forgotten war', but falls apart in wartime as it did the first time (at least, without an armed force to protect them). After all, the Jenn wouldn't have survived even to reach Rhuidean without the Aiel who'd broken the covenant to protect them. The Aiel broke the covenant in the first place to survive, and it can be argued that Aes Sedai failed the Aiel (by abandoning them to their fate) as much as the Aiel failed the Aes Sedai.<br />I also disagree that the Aiel lost their talent for Singing as a result of breaking the Covenant: they had lost the talent long before breaking the covenant, as Adan's confrontation with the first breakaway group (proto-Tinkers) in TSR suggests: at that time, the Aiel still kept the Covenant (travelling on a mission set by Aes Sedai, and being completely non-violent), but all they remember is that Aiel Singing used to be a 'wondrous thing'. It seems that Singing is a skill and craft as much as a talent, which needs to be learned and practiced, and was lost during Aiels' wanderings as refugees in a mad world.<br />My theory is that Aiel will serve as elite troops during the Last Battle (I certainly agree with a number of comments here that it's a tremendous waste to refuse the services of such good warriors in a battle, which won't be fought only by channellers). Afterwards, they'll serve as police/ peacekeepers (a role foreshadowed by their serving as Rand's own army and honour guard), being above national politics and ensuring that all nations adhere to the Pact of the Dragon. This will be the new covenant of the Aiel. The major change in the Aiel need to make to their thinking is abandoning the 'us against the world' mentality and placing themselves in the service of the world community at large. Aviendha, the Wise Ones and the rest of the Aiel will just have to work out how to make the nations (Seanchan especially!) keep the Pact after the original signatories are dead.Vickinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-75515062546454488032012-02-11T18:30:10.727-05:002012-02-11T18:30:10.727-05:00I can see where people are coming from with the ju...I can see where people are coming from with the jump in logic, but I do also agree with the fact that there could be many factors in the Singing that we are just simply unaware of.<br /><br />In any case, the Tinker population's proximity to Seanchan territory, (where the Ogier protecting the Empress/Daughter or Son of the Nine Moons are called Gardeners...perhaps a red herring, perhaps not) whose entire empire is based on absolute servitude in general, makes me believe that the Seanchan-Aiel dichotomy will be integral in the discovery of the Song. That being said, I do not know the means through which this will be achieved, but the glass column scene where Aviendha views the aftermath of the Last Battle where her people stubbornly maintain ways taught to them since returning to the wetlands - and, additionally, Fortuona's rather coincidental mutual confusion on how to lead her people who also face a great challenge to the continuity of their ways (i.e. collaring damane...I am pretty sure this will be slammed down by Egwene who knows how to escape a'dam besides) - makes these two candidates who need to meet up pronto. <br /><br />And on a complete sidenote, with Setalle Anan's assistance in getting Fortuona prepared for an Aes Sedai world, Nynaeve will be key to getting Fortuona on their side in terms of marath'damane treatment (especially as she defended Mat at the Dark Rand-Tuon meeting in TGS).inspirationismhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08111552644710544861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-65495809709637858372011-11-15T13:02:42.562-05:002011-11-15T13:02:42.562-05:00Where are you getting the idea that following the ...Where are you getting the idea that following the Way is required to properly sing the Song? I fail to understand your jump in logic here. The AoL Aiel followed the Way. The AoL Aiel Sang. But that does not mean one is the exclusive consequence of the other.<br /><br />Also, I also don't see where you're getting this "following the Way gave the AoL Aiel a level-up in powers" idea. You refer to other "powers" the Way supposedly gave them. What are you talking about?<br /><br />Seriously, the Wheel is cyclical but it doesn't run backwards. Just because things were awesome in the AoL and now things are being rediscovered doesn't mean everyone has to reboot and start the whole Age over again, which is what a lot of theories seem to be assuming. Male and female channelers don't need to reunite under one leader and name him the Tamyrlin either. Things are going to be different than they used to be. They can still be good. Forward progress, not just a copy and reboot. That would be stupid from an in-world standpoint, and cheap from a storywriting standpoint. The point of the whole saga isn't just how will Rand defeat the Dark One, it's how will Rand defeat the Dark One AND what will happen after?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-26308429213399453412011-10-13T19:01:38.579-04:002011-10-13T19:01:38.579-04:00I don't think so, 'his blood on the rocks ...I don't think so, 'his blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul' means the Aiel, to my mind, and it would mean a far stretch to have Jenn Aiel heads TOWARD conflict?Ryvermistnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-11532710131816637202011-09-13T14:35:01.377-04:002011-09-13T14:35:01.377-04:00Perhaps Rand will have some memory from Lews Theri...Perhaps Rand will have some memory from Lews Therin that gives some insight into if not how to actually sing, atleast the setup and effects and how to make it enhance channeling.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-10622709926650673942011-07-28T13:04:00.238-04:002011-07-28T13:04:00.238-04:00I put blight, but meant waste. Did not see any op...I put blight, but meant waste. Did not see any option for editing.Swordcrownedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09328323364861480971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-25093897482424805412011-07-25T18:06:31.384-04:002011-07-25T18:06:31.384-04:00I think the Aiel's return to "what was ou...I think the Aiel's return to "what was ours" is more them being once again a large part of the main world, instead of outcast in the blight. I doubt that large amounts of Aiel will up and decide that they want to follow the way of the leaf. They have had plenty of time to hear and decide their own individual futures. Those who could not handle it, ran. Either to the shaido, or to the tinkers, or to wherever. Those who could stick with the Rand, and will be a deciding factor in the future of the world. Just like they were in the age of legends, just with a different role to play.<br /><br />As for the damage to the Aiel, and how he would break them, we need to remember something important. You can not compare the damage he has done to the Aiel with what is going on in the rest of the world. They are two different prophecies. The Aiel do not follow the same prophecies that we have followed thru out this book. Just like the Seanchan do not follow the same prophecy, and the darkfriends do not follow.Swordcrownedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09328323364861480971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-81224071081390715822011-04-01T06:00:47.792-04:002011-04-01T06:00:47.792-04:00Mattrickster: you make good points.
The Way the...Mattrickster: you make good points. <br /><br />The Way they need to adopt freely is one which will give them the ability for Singing. Whether they reject people who can't follow that is another matter. We never saw this dogmatic attitude in the Age of Legends scenes, only during the Breaking. It may be a result of the Tinkers splitting off, the high mortality rate and the extreme pressures they were under to survive plus the absence of Aes Sedai to serve and thus give them purpose.Lindahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14767984732078916662noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-39863859104438118682011-04-01T03:52:03.841-04:002011-04-01T03:52:03.841-04:00Linda, this may be a strange way of looking at the...Linda, this may be a strange way of looking at the "Way of the Leaf" but I think that it would be wrong for the Aiel to readopt the "Way" as practised by the Tinkers or the Daishain. As shown it seems a Rule that demands absolute acceptance but without compassion. In TSR - the Road to the Lewin killed a bandit accidently while rescueing his younger sister. He was not much older than 12 or 14 yrs but his mother disowned for it. And Aram was disowned by Raen & Ila for picking up a sword after seeing his mother and family killed by trollocs. In both cases there was no understanding or compassion. If the Aiel do readopt the "Way of the Leaf", it should be a Way of peace and acceptance of everybody and everything.Otherwise they will just be a variation on the Whitecloak mentallity. The Whitecloaks believe that their way is the only way and if you don't follow them you deserve death. Death in life (shunning) or death, there is no difference.Mattricksternoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-17382846039269753642011-02-22T05:18:32.685-05:002011-02-22T05:18:32.685-05:00Well groups have a long history of splintering in ...Well groups have a long history of splintering in the Third Age, so it is quite likely that such as vexed issue as pacificism, and toh for breaking a strict covenant will cause splintering.<br /><br />Remnant of a remnant and all that.Lindahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14767984732078916662noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-50473968255800928332011-02-21T15:48:01.486-05:002011-02-21T15:48:01.486-05:00Only a small part of the Aiel adopting the way of ...Only a small part of the Aiel adopting the way of the leaf?! Sorry, I don't buy that. None of the evidence you collected so well indicates anything of the sort. It all talks about the Aiel as a whole.heridnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-74796507056520595552011-02-21T05:09:32.757-05:002011-02-21T05:09:32.757-05:00Herid: I don't think that hundreds of thousand...Herid: I don't think that hundreds of thousands of Aiel adopt the Way and don't suggest they will. A much smaller number will adopt it before the Last Battle. The lost ability for Singing needs to be regained before then - the Aiel and the Tinkers joining with the Ogier in Song. I think this is essential for defeat ofthe Dark One - and enables Rand to save a remnant of the Aiel (some from the Singers, some from the Warriors). After the Last Battle, some Aiel may adopt the Way, and others enforce the Peace actively.Lindahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14767984732078916662noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-66497274062104951782011-02-17T17:34:10.635-05:002011-02-17T17:34:10.635-05:00Hi Linda,
I agree with your theory that the Aiel n...Hi Linda,<br />I agree with your theory that the Aiel need to go back to the way of the leaf. There is even more evidence to support this in ToM in Avi's meeting with Nakomi and her visions in Rhuidean. But I was wondering if you still believe that this has to happen <b>before the Last Battle </b>.<br /><br />I think this is definitely wrong.<br /><br />First, there is no time. The Last battle starts tomorrow. Unless the entire Aiel population (or at least a very large part of it) is present at the Field of Merrilor this can not possibly occur before the Last Battle starts.<br /><br />Secondly, we are told <b>repeatedly</b> in recent books that every last man will be needed to fight in the LB. Every last one. Giving up hundreds of thousands of excellent warriors right before the LB starts is utter lunacy.<br /><br />Lastly, Avi's conversation with Nakomi is very suggestive. They easily agree that the Aiel can meet their toh as a people by fighting for the Dragon in the LB. There is no confusion or indecision on either side when they discuss it. They don't know what to do <b> after that </b> but that is a separate matter.heridnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-15866408694202988842010-10-22T06:37:29.988-04:002010-10-22T06:37:29.988-04:00@Dornan: That is an interesting idea! We are also ...@Dornan: That is an interesting idea! We are also seeing the series come full circle - so events from TEOTW become crucial or relevant to events at the end of the series.Lindahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14767984732078916662noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-43257554020896653162010-10-22T06:31:16.663-04:002010-10-22T06:31:16.663-04:00@Linda
Maybe since the last Nym died in the bligh...@Linda<br /><br />Maybe since the last Nym died in the blight which is obviously were there will be alot of the fighting he will be brought back by the singing. Didnt Loial do something to preserve that wee bit of land where the blight would never touch it?Just a thought<br /><br />dornanAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-35344641939633014642010-09-28T17:09:08.061-04:002010-09-28T17:09:08.061-04:00The Nym were constructs so I think the only wayto ...The Nym were constructs so I think the only wayto bring them back would be to re-construct them.<br /><br />Not sure if Nym are necessary for the Song as such or only see-singing. Maybe they aren't essential for that either.Lindahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14767984732078916662noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-66626740151190465132010-09-28T08:56:27.471-04:002010-09-28T08:56:27.471-04:00Perhaps Singing is the key to ending the pestilenc...Perhaps Singing is the key to ending the pestilence that the DO has laid upon the world. Though it seems that to truly make Singing work you'd need a Nym. Or perhaps that through Singing, Aiel and Ogier can bring back the Nym and the Nym can heal the land.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-85083794596377088252010-08-19T06:24:27.983-04:002010-08-19T06:24:27.983-04:00The Tinkers were the first group to abandon the co...The Tinkers were the first group to abandon the covenants of the Da'shain. They kept the Way of the Leaf but stopped serving the Aes Sedai. The Aiel abandoned the Way first and then stopped serving the Aes Sedai. Neither qualify as Jenn.<br /><br />The Jenn said:<br /><br />“Our days dwindle,” Mordaine said. “A day will come when the Jenn are no more, and only you will<br />remain to remember the Aiel. You must remain, or all is for nothing, and lost.”<br />The flatness of her voice, the calm sureness, silenced Charendin, but Mandein had one more question.<br />“Why? If you know your doom, why do this?” He gestured toward the structures rising in the distance.<br />“It is our purpose,” Dermon replied calmly. “For long years we searched for this place, and now we<br />prepare it, if not for the purpose we once thought. We do what we must, and keep faith.”<br /><br />TSR, The Road to the Spear<br /><br />They died out.Lindahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14767984732078916662noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-16934431113125830562010-08-11T13:05:08.953-04:002010-08-11T13:05:08.953-04:00Is it possible that the Jenn Aiel and the Tinkers ...Is it possible that the Jenn Aiel and the Tinkers are one and the same? The Jenn were the only ones who did not abandon the Way, and I was under the impression that it never actually said that they had died, so much as said that they left of something of that sort. But, perhaps I misread(?).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-81522202574350020562010-08-03T15:39:31.639-04:002010-08-03T15:39:31.639-04:00The idea of the Shaido adopting the way of the lea...The idea of the Shaido adopting the way of the leaf is interesting, also they are a remnant of a remnant. The Shaido were whole when Couladin was leadng them and became a Remnant after they battled Rand/Mat. That remnant lead by Sevanna than battled Perrin and became a remnant of a remnant.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-49740651665274726072010-08-03T06:03:03.301-04:002010-08-03T06:03:03.301-04:00Jack: we know no more of the effect than I quoted....Jack: we know no more of the effect than I quoted. Could work in a variety of ways.<br /><br />Apart from Aginor, the Forsaken don't make things. That requires an entirely different mindset to how they are. Aginor only twisted things in his creating, not made new things. Forsaken, steal, corrupt, destroy. These are not the qualities of a creator or craftsman.<br /><br />The Shaido: it would be good if they could redeem themselves. OTherwise, as a people who have rejected Rand rather than given him even the simplest of service, they are doomed.Lindahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14767984732078916662noreply@blogger.com