tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post4459628090200772675..comments2024-01-14T15:52:43.644-05:00Comments on The Thirteenth Depository - A Wheel of Time Blog: Crossroads of Twilight Read-through #7: Keeping Up With the Black AjahDominichttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17610557134981958201noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-30017451448218250422021-02-27T02:26:58.509-05:002021-02-27T02:26:58.509-05:00Something else I couldn't put my finger on las...Something else I couldn't put my finger on last night when I wrote my previous comment was where we had "seen" an elevator in the Third Age... And, the Sea Folk land again this one too, as well as the superior knowledge about weather and astronomy, which all helped them survive at sea. The elevator they use is a fairly simple platform, which is man-pulled. With appropriate/large enough gears, the elevator would have worked for a much larger vertical distance. All left for Alviarin to do would be to Power it up with the standing flows, or by man-power, if it had a bell attached to it so the poor fellas would know when to pull. All achievable, even without all technological knowledge that superior to what they had in hand.<br />Knowledge was not only lost, but it's spread was looked at with terror, experimenting with the Power was "dangerous and that's all there is to it". Absolute blend with the Mediaeval thoughts of our world, the Aes Sedai.<br />I know you have written a lot of articles on the matter, that's just one bit of RJ's way of having made the reader pull their hair that bugged me a great deal.belugakidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17687333679338563130noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-63969053994841663212021-02-26T18:06:05.794-05:002021-02-26T18:06:05.794-05:00The White Ajah holds women of two different discip...The White Ajah holds women of two different disciplines that require logic: mathematics and philosophy. Someone skilled or interested in one is not necessarily skilled or interested in the other. Some women will do both. <br /><br />We know about technology, but the Third Age people don't. That's the point about this scene. The loss of knowledge has been huge. Rand's schools are all about regaining knowledge.<br /><br />Alviarin's previous confrontation with Elaida (when they discuss intelligence reports and Elaida Foretells) was all about false knowledge and also wrong interpretation of knowledge. Foretelling is knowledge gained in a magical way.Lindahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14767984732078916662noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-11930099339933678512021-02-26T13:31:29.598-05:002021-02-26T13:31:29.598-05:00Hi. One thing I noticed in Alviarin’s PoV, not rea...Hi. One thing I noticed in Alviarin’s PoV, not really that important to the main story, but a rather revealing detail was in Alviarin’s thoughts on both the “elevator” and the Ninth Depository. We are finally told what some of the other Depositories at the Tower’s library was - a collection on a particular subject, Maths. I think it is VERY revealing that a White Ajah Aes Sedai has no idea what importance mathematics plays in both science and technology. For a sister of the rang of Alviarin - that would mean that a lot of knowledge indeed was lost during the Breaking of the World. We could argue that the Brown Ajah would know and have studied the materials in there, but still, even though Alviarin is a Darkfriend, it would have been common knowledge for a member of the Ajah dedicated to studying logic and philosophy, that - the importance of Mathematics to science and knowledge altogether. <br />Ironically, not a few moments after leaving the 9th depository, Alviarin regrets the lack of “a thing called elevator”.<br />It is VERY revealing that she couldn’t make the connection between “different techniques for calculation” and something easily built, had one studied them.belugakidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17687333679338563130noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-61568413296772952262010-06-10T04:09:38.426-04:002010-06-10T04:09:38.426-04:00Hi,
To be clear, I also agree that the contradict...Hi,<br /><br />To be clear, I also agree that the contradiction was initially a mistake and that Elaida's story was added later. However, given that is the explanation as provided by RJ, we have no option but to take it at face value and try to make the facts as presented fit. <br /><br />Given the quotes in tDR and the later lack of knowledge in CoT, the implication is that some (but not all) of the Hall connected the murders at the time but later changed their minds. It's possible that they adjusted their opinions under pressure from both Siuan and from Black Sisters, neither of whom would want the connection made. <br /><br />Cheers,<br /><br />LJ.LordJussnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-52429014604659629322010-06-07T07:57:21.658-04:002010-06-07T07:57:21.658-04:00I agree Anonymous that Jordan's handling of El...I agree Anonymous that Jordan's handling of Elaida as a Sitter and what the Hall knew of the murders contradicts later scenes where no one knows anything about Liandrin's group or BA in general. And Elaida's backstory is an afterthoughtLindahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14767984732078916662noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-70992460913901988402010-06-04T10:24:33.678-04:002010-06-04T10:24:33.678-04:00"RJ addressed this in one of the questions of..."RJ addressed this in one of the questions of the week."<br /><br />I know, but it's not Elaida's beliefs that are really a problem (though Jordan's explanation, that came before Maria's corrections of his misconceptions about Elaida's back story, is not very convincing: Elaida is presented as a woman who almost never changes her opinions, even in the face of evidence), it's the contradiction in how Jordan presented the Liandrin events in TDR vs. in the BA hunt story line.<br /><br />In TDR, Elaida knows as much as Siuan. She speaks of a group who knows. This group was limited, because Siuan said few in the Tower knew the whole truth. This group had to be the Hall, because Siuan clearly implied the Hall knew:<br /><br />" if it were known you had gone off with Liandrin, the Hall might very well vote for stilling the three of you before you could take a breath."<br /><br />She wouldn't say that unless the Hall knew the connection between Liandrin, her group and the murders/thefts. She wasn't <i>only</i> trying to frighten the girls. There was no reason for her to complete the statement in her head as "if the Hall knew the connection between Liandrin and the murders, that is".<br /><br />Later in the book, Elaida, a Sitter indeed knows everything:<br /><br />"Liandrin and her... companions leave us. There will inevitably be comparisons. We are sure Liandrin and those who went with her are Darkfriends. Black Ajah." <br /><br />Elaida can't lie, that had to be the truth as she knew it, and she's affirmative. Not "might" or maybes, but "sure", "there will" etc. <br /><br />Elaida knew who perpetrated the murders. She states it, so she must had believed it at the time, and her "we" are sure these women are DF, so they had some evidence. Elaida was also serious about Elayne needing her protection from those "we"'s eventual suspicions. Siuan referred to that too, and specified the danger was the Hall. Her "we" have some influence, since she believes they might make trouble for Elayne. ELaida's "we" have to be the Hall too.<br /> <br />But in COT for Yukiri the news that Temaille is BA comes as a revelation. She remembers then Temaille left the Tower around the time sisters were murdered, and thinks they'll have to look into who else has left at the time. <br /><br />And it's not only Yukiri. Pevara, Seaine also never make the connection, nor Shevan. Those four never saw any proof or even suspicions discussed in the Hall that the BA existed, that's clear. All four were Sitters by TDR. They never knew about any group of sisters who committed the murders and left the Tower together. They speak as if they only know the story as Siuan let leak it, about DFs entering the Tower and committing murder (she speaks of the rumours for the servants, however, not the sisters). It's clearly as if Jordan by that point thought this was the only way the story was known. <br /><br />In COT, the Hall in TDR has <i>not</i> linked the murders of sisters to <i>any</i> other Aes Sedai, and the sisters who left at the time were never even considered as "a group".<br /><br />By ACOS and later books, the vision of Jordan is rather that the Hall never knew it's sisters who committed the murders in TDR, and Liandrin and those we left were never identified as "a group", let alone as the culprits of these murders. It's not those obvious events Pevara brought up in ACOS as evidence the BA exists, it's the "vileness". It's not Liandrin Seaine brought up, but the deaths of Amyrlins.<br /><br />It really looks as if Jordan had not only forgotten about Elaida being a Sitter, but has actually overlooked altogether those scenes with Elaida while she was a Sitter, when he started the BA hunt story line, that and the fact Siuan spoke to the girls as if the Hall knew the connection between Liandrin and the murders. <br /> <br />-TheoAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-73829561116287930612010-06-04T05:00:12.161-04:002010-06-04T05:00:12.161-04:00Hi,
Regarding Elaida naming Liandrin and her grou...Hi,<br /><br />Regarding Elaida naming Liandrin and her group as BA in tDR, RJ addressed this in one of the questions of the week. Essentially Elaida can't make up her mind. When presented with the murders and the departure of Liandrin's group she (and presumably other Red Sitters - she says "we think") decide that they must have been responsible and so are Black Ajah. <br /><br />But she hates the very idea of the Black Ajah, so she convinces herself that she must have been wrong (Galina may have had a hand in this. Something along the lines of "Oh no my dear it was clearly a coincidience"). Over time she worries again and changes back, and so we start over. <br /><br />As for how the murders were presented, I've wondered that myself. Presumably, Siuan claimed that the murders had been carried out by Darkfriends who had got into the Tower (all true, but not the whole truth). Given the number of sisters coming and going from the Tower at any one time, only Siuan and Leane may have had the information as to exactly who left on the night in question.<br /><br />Cheers,<br /><br />LJ.LordJussnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-66079082088349517702010-06-03T06:35:52.097-04:002010-06-03T06:35:52.097-04:00Anonymous: You are jumping the gun a bit. I'll...Anonymous: You are jumping the gun a bit. I'll look at the Black Ajah again in the Knife of Dreams read-through.Lindahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14767984732078916662noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-27939967148765194382010-06-02T22:26:10.325-04:002010-06-02T22:26:10.325-04:00About the conflicting actions of Sheriam, Delana, ...About the conflicting actions of Sheriam, Delana, Moria and Nacelle.<br /><br />This has all the appearances of an internal conflict within the Shadow between "the gars" and Mesaana/Demandred.<br /><br />Osan'gar nearly fucked everything up at the Black Tower, with his attempt to kill Rand. Eventually, Demandred must have learned who Dashiva really was. <br /><br />Mesaana also learned what Aran'gar was up to before Aran'gar knew she was in the Tower. <br /><br />It sounds like Mesaana set up Aran'gar for the fall. I think it's her, not Aran'gar, who arranged to get Anaiya and Kairen killed, "stupidly" leaving bodies and saidin residues behind. Aran'gar was much more cautious than this, even to kill mere maids. Semirhage knew all there was to know to tip Mesaana/Demandred about "Halima".<br /><br />I don't think Aran'gar was discussing with Delana the proposal of negotiations with the BT before the Hall's sitting, simply because how could Aran'gar know this would come up at that sitting? If she was in contact with Moria, Aran'gar would never have let this happen, and Moria would never have undertaken this on her own.. so she must have been following Mesaana's orders to bring up this proposal, and work hard to make it pass in the Hall). It's far more likely Delana was late because was getting instructions on how to react in the Hall to the report about Shadar Logoth. Mesaana was faster and outplayed Aran'gar on this. Delana was so reluctant to cast her vote because she had to <i>guess</i> on the spot, without ever discussing this issue with her boss, if Aran'gar would want her to vote in favour of negotiations, thereby ensuring she's be part of that faction and might be able to influence further decisions as Aran'gar would instruct, or if she had to vote against it, at the risk of being pushed aside by the faction.<br /><br />And then, Mesaana threw another rock in the pond: she had Nacelle, another BA, "discover" a weave to detect saidin weaves.<br /><br />Mesaana may also very well have had a forewarning about Rand's offer from "her woman near Rand". It would have been a child's game for Elza to point out to Narishma they should not forget to warn the rebels about that female Forsaken channelling saidin. <br /><br />With or without Romanda or Lelaine finding out the truth about the murders, with Nacelle's weave and Narishma's information Aran'gar's safety was too seriously comprised to stay. Delana was not even longer around to hear that Halima had been exposed as a Forsaken and herself as BA. They fled before the sitting was over. <br /><br />Mesaana made a huge mistake, though. She lost her self control at a meeting and very unwisely revealed to Aran'gar she was in the White Tower.<br /><br />It was then a child's game for Aran'gar to puzzle out that beside getting rid of her, Mesaana pushing so hard for an alliance with the BT must be because Demandred is involved at the BT. <br /><br />If this is largely correct, then it means we can expect Aran'gar in TOM to focus on getting her revenge against Mesaana and Demandred. She's... very well positionned to make trouble as TGS begins. She likely has the information Graendal really wants badly (Demandred's plans) and Graendal has the information Aran'gar will want the most: Mesaana's disguise in the Tower. <br /><br />Aran'gar may have had a role in whatever happened to delay the rebel envoys. My personal guess is that Aran'gar came to them in Caemlyn disguised as Taim's negotiator... and redirected the embassy to Logain.<br /><br />My prediction is that Aran'gar will have a role to play in Mesaana's downfall and it will succeed, but Demandred will take out Aran'gar, and whatever plans there was to have a WT/Taim faction's alliance will become obsolete the moment the BA escapees take refuge there. Demandred will have his mixed gender army, but much smaller than he expected.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-58815182764708858682010-06-02T19:54:13.650-04:002010-06-02T19:54:13.650-04:00More precisely, the Hall was aware of the murders ...More precisely, the Hall was aware of the murders and thefts (which were not common knowledge among the rest of the Tower. God knows how Siuan has presented this to the Hall...), and measures were implemented (someone to stand guard in front of the vaults, and wards).<br /><br />But you're right. Unless Jordan made a mistake somewhere, we're lead to believe from Yukiri in COT that the 13 sisters who left were never named as BA or even as suspects in the murders/thefts in the Hall (that is, in the Tower. This became known much earlier in Salidar, because of the girls' report).<br /><br />Elaida, then a Sitter, was curiously one of those who made early the connection between the BA, the murders and Liandrin and her associates, which was rather a bit out of character for her (Jordan at some point seems to have completely forgotten about these episodes when Elaida was a Sitter, including the fact that she's been one for a while... Later on it seems this scene where Elaida names Liandrin and her group BA to Elayne has slipped from his memory as well). <br /><br />How Siuan found out that the 12 women who went away were all associates of Liandrin remains a bit of a mystery. From the way Yukiri presents things in COT, Siuan could no more than guess (except for Liandrin herself, that is - and this only after the girls brought their news) the 12 women who left at the time were all BA. With Verin gone, one wonders who she turned to to investigate who had left the Tower around that time. Probably not Sheriam, as it seems the Shadow didn't realise Siuan knew too much and was hunting the BA, before Siuan made the mistake of charging Verin to gather the information for her hunters. In a way, Siuan and Leane are colateral damages of Verin's mission. Siuan was probably doomed in the long run, but it may well be Verin's report that she put people in charge of hunting down the BA that doomed her (which Siuan, in a way, had foreseen... and not without irony two out of three women she decided to trust with this were BA). She got a reprieve only because Ishamael died at the wrong time, and Alviarin would never have pulled down an Amyrlin without a Chosen's permission. She probably had to wait for Mesaana's first contact with her to present her with a plan.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-51086891299898870172010-06-02T17:09:15.636-04:002010-06-02T17:09:15.636-04:00At the time of COT I mean.At the time of COT I mean.Lindahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14767984732078916662noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-56614399423724545352010-06-02T17:08:56.890-04:002010-06-02T17:08:56.890-04:00Thanks Furyn.
Anonymous: Yukiri, a Sitter, was no...Thanks Furyn.<br /><br />Anonymous: Yukiri, a Sitter, was not aware that Temaile was Black or committed those crimes until Talene revealed Temaile was a member of her heart. This is in the COT Prologue. So it was not public knowledge. Or even recorded anywhere.Lindahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14767984732078916662noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-72418138562103938752010-06-02T13:58:36.449-04:002010-06-02T13:58:36.449-04:00Liandrin and her group already revealed themselves...Liandrin and her group already revealed themselves. Did Siuan really manage to keep their actions secret or are sisters still in denial about them?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-86558888097152225442010-06-02T12:27:30.710-04:002010-06-02T12:27:30.710-04:00An excellent summary. Thanks.An excellent summary. Thanks.Furynnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4833204375789249557.post-90866582865171932982010-06-02T07:29:52.964-04:002010-06-02T07:29:52.964-04:00shouldnt there be a large spoiler warning about ve...shouldnt there be a large spoiler warning about verin...Joe SThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15114538269889694920noreply@blogger.com